Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

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LuckyLuckLuc
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Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by LuckyLuckLuc » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:28 pm

The Medic DLC did add a lot of neat things and recipes but it seems to me like it has put the pit in its easiest state.

Reasons -

1) Loot drops of been fixed so OP weaponry is seen more
2) modded weapons have been added to the loot table.
3) one stack 15 energy cell drop has been added to ammo crates (I think?)
4) Food has become much less relevant
5) other stuff i have not thought about?

I'm quite happy with #1, (although i have not seen most of the weapons that were supposed to be fixed, but the shak'asa or whatever, is definately too strong)
#2, i'm not so sure, seems a little strong but it IS very cool and doesn't affect the game too much. (i got an enduro laser carbine from a medium security bot which is pretty massive upgrade from the regular carbine)

#3 not really a big deal, but lowering this to 12 or 10 would be better

#4 is what concerns me the most. With the addition of the food pellet recipe and ultra med-bays, managing your food bar has become quite easier than before.


If I had it my way, food pellet recipe would either be random and yield 1-5 pellets, or simply 2 pellets every time. The risk/reward of this recipe isn't balanced very well and the components are very common.

Ultra-med bays are neat but they needed to be more similar in design to protein baths. Very rare (which they are) and extremely hard to use (which they are not)

The ease of use and the enormous reward that the ultra-medbays offer is simply too much. They can even have 2 uses sometimes. getting 1000 food from a prop with a 60% chance or so with base 45 computer skill is way too easy. (i'm estimating the numbers cause i'm lazy)

If I had it my way, Ultra med bays would be even rarer, be like 20% @ 45 computer skill, have one use, and have a dire critical fail. (set food and health to 1?)


I'm a very experienced player so i don't know how new players or intermediate players feel about this so I'd love to hear some feedback!
Check out my livestream and watch me suffer in the Pit!

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Svankensen
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Svankensen » Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:40 pm

Food and health to 1 sounds right. I mean its not even such a big loss (as long as it doesnt explode too), since if you are using it right you are using it with low food. The potential loss, even then, doesnt compare to the benefits.

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Mecron
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Mecron » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:10 pm

Thinks of luc being chased by angry mobs of "average" players and chuckles :twisted:

Svankensen
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Svankensen » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:52 pm

Oh, we do gather at his stream and throw bad advice at him. Then he dies. It hapens 9/10 times at least =p

Sard Caid
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Sard Caid » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:06 pm

I agree with what lucky's suggesting, but I also feel that if such changes were to be made, a look at recipe difficulty should be made concurrently. There are a number of recipes that are far too difficult when comparing risk vs reward of added food value.

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skugge
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by skugge » Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:40 am

Can you get food from the ultra med bay?

Svankensen
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Svankensen » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:17 am

Maxes your food bar.

LuckyLuckLuc
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by LuckyLuckLuc » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:49 am

Grilleds wrote:No. Because food wasn't a huge problem beforehand either. I'm far from a great player, but the number of times I've had a character run into hunger issues is incredibly low, and it tends to be easily solvable. Even before the Medic DLC it was pretty rare to run into food problems after around floor 10. Metabolic Control also almost completely eliminates the entire hunger mechanic.

The last run where I got to floor 40 I had 10 Hero Sotswiches in my inventory, alongside quite a few other food items. You end up crafting so many food items on an average run that hunger tends to be the least of your concerns.

There's also a number of easy exploits that make food less of an issue. Such as letting Rat Matrons spawn enough rats to farm meat, or individually cooking items to raise your Biotech up to 45.


I agree that food was never a problem in the late game but pre-medic, i still frequently struggled as the merc or morrigi or shepherd pre lvl 20.
Check out my livestream and watch me suffer in the Pit!

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Completed (no blue room - no Ammo cheat) -
Insane Engineer
Insane Marine
Insane Scout
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skugge
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by skugge » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:04 am

LuckyLuckLuc wrote:
Grilleds wrote:No. Because food wasn't a huge problem beforehand either. I'm far from a great player, but the number of times I've had a character run into hunger issues is incredibly low, and it tends to be easily solvable. Even before the Medic DLC it was pretty rare to run into food problems after around floor 10. Metabolic Control also almost completely eliminates the entire hunger mechanic.

The last run where I got to floor 40 I had 10 Hero Sotswiches in my inventory, alongside quite a few other food items. You end up crafting so many food items on an average run that hunger tends to be the least of your concerns.

There's also a number of easy exploits that make food less of an issue. Such as letting Rat Matrons spawn enough rats to farm meat, or individually cooking items to raise your Biotech up to 45.


I agree that food was never a problem in the late game but pre-medic, i still frequently struggled as the merc or morrigi or shepherd pre lvl 20.


I agree. To some extent the hiver aswell. The game is a choice of what DO i want to struggle with this time? Food, weapons or staying alive :D? Thats why i like the medic as it is. Its fun to be an awesome cooker for once and being able to backtrack. Its a bit similar to other classes but also not. You wont have metabolic control so you will have to eat actual food and its always the chance of stepping on a wormhole mine. I am currently on floor 32 on hard with medic and if i dont pass the protean bath check i might starve actually... And my ammo is really low cause i had the misfortune of running into 2 morrigis last floor and 4 on this!

Zidriel
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Zidriel » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:41 pm

I feel like the food has become too easy to manage after the update too, i'm playing with engineer, and since floor 30 i'm not even using cooker for food, i have found about 8 ultra med bay on this run and 2 of them have give me 2 uses, so its not rare and not difficult to success on it, before the update the only characters i had problem with food was the hiver/morrigi/mercenary, and i think that only the morrigi needs a buff on that, but now food has become too damn easy for everyone.
The new recipe should give 2 or 3 food pellets, and the ultra med bay i guess it could just restore max health and psi, and perhaps give a 100 ~ 200 of food?

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skugge
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by skugge » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:07 pm

I dont care much about the recipes the way they are but i do think the ultra med bays need a fix. Make it very rare or something to recieve the food perk cause it does make it all a bit meh.

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SandboxHead
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by SandboxHead » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:39 am

Hi Devs, this thread spurred me to register. To say this: Please do not hang onto every opinion from pro players. I've seen it destroy games. :?

My personal experience with this is Dawn Of War 1 and especially 2. Part of their eventual competitive demise is from "input from pro players". While I'm not a pro player in this game (I do have 200+ hours logged into this game), I am an older video game grognard as a whole, and was heavily involved with the DoW community during its hey day, including being one of the founding members of the DoWpro mod.

Balance changes catering to "pros" really do make the game un-fun for everyone else. For example, you made the Pellets x5 into Pellets x2, and probably made Ultra Medbay super rare, because of LLL's input. Great, now the Striker is once again unwinnable for 90% of the silent majority player base. :|

This is a single player game; I would like to be able to win (or at least get close to it) with all characters on Normal, if I've logged 200+ hrs into the game. If pros like LLL want to die so badly, he can go play Insane or Seriously.

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Mecron
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by Mecron » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:54 pm

Thanks for the input Sand! Fear not, you and I are on the same beam on this issue. The input from the hardcore is very useful in noticing things like how often something appears or if something is working properly but they can never be the final arbiter of balance or difficulty level. I watched the hardcores destroy the flight sim market back in the 90's and then turn the FPS market into a post apocalyptic sociopath screech session in the lat 00's. Even something near and dear to my hear like sots prime can creep up on things, which is why despite agreeing with old pro's around here about where the loop holes or AI repition is, I take pains to play the game with new people from time to time so I can go...hmm yes this person has not come close to winning on medium in 30 hours of play but should manage their first win in another 20 or so...PERFECT! And harder and it till crush the hearts of anyone casual ;)

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SandboxHead
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by SandboxHead » Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:24 pm

My 1st post was too general and a bit hostile. Here's my objective reasoning regarding Food Pellets x5, and Ultra Medbays.

(1) Food Pellets x5:
Each pellet is 35. So before nerf it took Fat Strip x1 and Primordial Soup x1 to give 175. For comparison, that's Sotswich x1, plus 25 more (+25 gives a Striker about enough food to explore 2 rooms). A Sotswich is made with Meat x1 and Warbread x1.

So is Pellets x5 really "omg so OP must nerf"? There are runs where I don't see any Fat Strips for 10 floors or lack Primordial Soups (enemies don't drop this), just as there are runs where I don't see any Warbread. And remember instances of low-Biotech botches, or infuriating absence of functional Cookers. So Pellets x5 basically gives high-hunger characters an extra chance to make a Sotswich analog, which honestly is really only mid-tier food. Yes, that extra chance makes food situation less dire, at the cost of not making Base Paste or Energy Drinks. Energy Drinks are not "replaced" because its +1 movement can save your life.

I'd say Food Pellets can be nerfed to x4 (+140), to be behind Sotswiches instead of ahead.

(2) Ultra Medbays:
I've played this game for exactly 257 hours. I've seen a Protein Bath a total of... 3 times? I've successfully used one a total of... once. If the Ultra Medbay has been made as rare as the Protein Bath, it means it becomes a non-entity like the Protein Bath.

I admit, during my Striker run when the Medic DLC came out, the UM popped up really often. Its frequency can use an adjustment, but don't make it a non-entity.

nobody1111
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Re: Has food become too easy with Medic DLC?

Post by nobody1111 » Sun May 01, 2016 3:01 am

SandboxHead wrote:My 1st post was too general and a bit hostile. Here's my objective reasoning regarding Food Pellets x5, and Ultra Medbays.

(1) Food Pellets x5:
Each pellet is 35. So before nerf it took Fat Strip x1 and Primordial Soup x1 to give 175. For comparison, that's Sotswich x1, plus 25 more (+25 gives a Striker about enough food to explore 2 rooms). A Sotswich is made with Meat x1 and Warbread x1.

So is Pellets x5 really "omg so OP must nerf"? There are runs where I don't see any Fat Strips for 10 floors or lack Primordial Soups (enemies don't drop this), just as there are runs where I don't see any Warbread. And remember instances of low-Biotech botches, or infuriating absence of functional Cookers. So Pellets x5 basically gives high-hunger characters an extra chance to make a Sotswich analog, which honestly is really only mid-tier food. Yes, that extra chance makes food situation less dire, at the cost of not making Base Paste or Energy Drinks. Energy Drinks are not "replaced" because its +1 movement can save your life.

I'd say Food Pellets can be nerfed to x4 (+140), to be behind Sotswiches instead of ahead.

(2) Ultra Medbays:
I've played this game for exactly 257 hours. I've seen a Protein Bath a total of... 3 times? I've successfully used one a total of... once. If the Ultra Medbay has been made as rare as the Protein Bath, it means it becomes a non-entity like the Protein Bath.

I admit, during my Striker run when the Medic DLC came out, the UM popped up really often. Its frequency can use an adjustment, but don't make it a non-entity.
your comparison between food pellet and sotswitch kinda falls apart, because its not Food total that you need to actual look for if the recipe is good, but how much food you gain over ingredients eaten as is, because that is how much food you actually gain, that is how you look at how much value you really gain from a recipe, a sotswich gives +40 over ingredients a hero sotswitch gives +110 over ingredients, the food pellet gives +160 over ingredients putting it actually ahead of both.
If you look at this math, that people use to calculate recipe value for food, Food pellet as 5x is one of the top food recipes, standing behind monsters such as the eggnog +310 over ingredients, bird of feasting that gives +185 (and a lot of other bonuses and scraps) pit stew that gives +300, and making 5x sammiches from avian carcass. that gives +235 over ingredients


and out of them? food pellets is by far the most common and easy to make.

If you don't look for the Over ingredients as what counts for value, you don't notice that a lot of recipes give really low value (like +20 food over) for really high check, like the bugboy and fall for the illusion that crafting food necessarily gives you more food, or the grill toast that gives only +10 food over, and is as hard to make as the food pellets.

thew new food pellet gives you 35x2-15=55 over ingredients, which still puts it over sotswitch, but only 5 ahead of energy drink at +50, which might be a slight over nerfed, as I doubt it will see as much play, unless you lack what it takes to make energy drink, over all I feel that 3x maybe the right spot since it puts it and +90 food over, which still leaves it as a decent recipe, without making it better then the herosotswich

also good luck on your striker runs, it took me around 600~ hours to get my first striker win, though I insisted that would be my first win.

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