Late game DE's can they be worth it?

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mistervec
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by mistervec » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:12 am

CR's are kind of expensive, while DN's are enormously so. Many players will prefer to field larger numbers of general-purpose combat ships rather than invest in a specialized CR or DN that may only be useful for a single battle. Since these same players rarely, if ever, actually design and deploy specialized combat ships, they often find little use for the more fragile DE and think of them as fodder at best and useless at worst.

This is, perhaps, not entirely fair.

Firstly, Destroyers are almost always useful when employed in groups of six-to-ten as system defense fleets. They can handle most of the RE's that a planet will encounter and, if used carefully, can even stall an attacking cruiser fleet long enough for the battle timer to run out, granting you some extra time for reinforcements to arrive. Destroyers are the only hulls that employ a few very useful combinations of ship sections, such as a cloaking/scanning or shield/scanning, meaning you can bring a relatively durable (or untargetable) scanning ship to a battle without it tying up an entire cruiser. Destroyers also possess superior acceleration and maneuverability compared to the larger hulls, so they work very well in situations where you NEED to get your ships to a certain point on the map, such as when you're suffering from surprise attacks.

Here are some other fun ideas that you can use if you want to try experimenting with mid/late game DE models, but are uneasy about using a fleet primarily composed of them:

Morrigi drone destroyers, when deployed en-masse against a foe that lacks effective PD (in this case, interceptor missiles or PD phasers) can be absolutely devastating. The drones themselves can do a great deal of damage, sure, but the destroyers themselves aren't too shabby.

AI defenders will break formation to chase down shuttles. If I'm attacking a planet, I will occasionally bring a group of shuttle-toting destroyers along. They launch their shuttles and then retreat to the back line. My cruisers follow behind the shuttles, taking advantage of the resulting chaos. If you equip the shuttles with some decent weapons, they may even take out a ship or two on their way in.

Meson shields will protect against pretty much all energy weapon damage. If you are lucky enough to roll them, then DE's gain a great amount of overall survivability. The weapons that cause DEs the most trouble are high-accuracy energy weapons, which the shields will protect them from. I've watched a DE stand its ground against a DN one-on-one simply because the DN's heavy combat lasers, phasers, and large beam mounts were simply shrugged off.

As you research the command-point-increasing techs, you'll occasionally have 2 or 4 command points left over after you put in as many CRs/DNs as the fleet will allow for. Try building a DE that can fulfill a useful role and slotting it in. The aforementioned cloaking/scanning or shielded/scanning designs are obvious choices, as are dedicated point defense ships or, perhaps a DE equipped with a high-end torpedo.

Anyway, have fun!
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chronobomb
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by chronobomb » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:29 pm

I recently was playing Liir and getting killed by Hiver CR sporting Mass Drivers and HCL. I rolled 0 armor tech and Heavy mass drivers would kill my CR in just a few volleys. The HCL were being used to shoot my ballistic shields off.

So Hiver 24 CR fleet is incoming to a Size 3 world. My main fleet had been smashed and other ships were tied up in other battles and Size 3 was rather unimportant to me. It did have an old DN CNC, to slow to use anymore, that I was using for Event coverage. So the planet production was too low to make a useful number of CR so I made as many DE's as I could (18). 5 Torp DE's and the rest were War Variants. I figured since I had no armor and the shields had proven useless, I would just make them cheap in your face Node missile style DE's. I actually took all 24 CR's (I play 10 min battles).

I set them to mix it up and the Liir jinking drives made them very hard to hit and the HCL's almost always missed. They killed 17 DE's to 24 CR. I will take those odds any day. Especially when I had been losing CR and DN's left and right.

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DervMan
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by DervMan » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:13 pm

That's a fantastic result!

It also highlights one of the reasons why I still enjoy Sword of the Stars so much. Nothing, or very little at least, is ever set in stone. ;)
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Meshakhad
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Meshakhad » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:37 pm

One of my mainstay destroyers is a deepscan/cloak fitting. I try to bring one with every fleet.

I also use destroyers for system defense, even in late game. Supported by defense sats, a 10-DE SDF can handle the Swarm or a few VNs.

Talguy 21
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Talguy 21 » Sat May 26, 2012 6:18 am

Meshakhad wrote:One of my mainstay destroyers is a deepscan/cloak fitting. I try to bring one with every fleet.

I also use destroyers for system defense, even in late game. Supported by defense sats, a 10-DE SDF can handle the Swarm or a few VNs.



At the very least, it will stop the VN from permanently draining resources. The only DEs I use in late game are generally Tankers, but I have been known to throw 'Lemming' ships,(Pursuit/DeepScan DEs), as Kamekaze scouts.... That is, when I don't get cloaking. Why, Hivers! Though I have heard tales of a single DE killing a full blown DN outright... (Detonating AM torps + Standoff = fried.)
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ConjurerDragon
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by ConjurerDragon » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:34 am

In my current human game I´m still in the pulsed fission phase and have noticed that the
extrended range DE has a greater range than the extended range CR.

Here on the forums I read that colonizer DE´s bring more industry to a colony than biome CR´s.

Are there any other advantages that DE´s have that are not visible at first sight?

fredNN
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by fredNN » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:18 am

ConjurerDragon wrote:Here on the forums I read that colonizer DE´s bring more industry to a colony than biome CR´s.

Equal cost DE bring more industry on new colony. But they bring very little population and you need population to do work.
Do test: colonize same planet with equal cost DE and CR and check what variant finish developing planet faster.

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DervMan
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by DervMan » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:28 am

I've been experimenting with introducing or rather, reintroducing Destroyers, into my late game battles. See, mostly, when I'm going toe to toe with enemy Dreadnoughts, my Destroyers last a few seconds before the rays of doom destroy my fragile warships...

...but I've tried throwing huge numbers of Drones at an unsuspecting enemy, using Destroyers. I tried the "wait until you see the greens of their eyes" tactic as the Morrigi against a technologically more advanced Tarka Empire. They were kicking my tail feathers across the galaxy and I'd been avoiding using missiles, so their fleets had minimal point defence. Actually I'd been pretty much avoiding weaponry from battle reports but anyway!

So... One Armada CnC and more Fusion Mine and Drone Destroyers than you could waggle a tail at, decided to try the Morrigi's fighting retreat approach. That's a modification of my usual "run away and die!" tactic, with less of the dying.

It worked. The bad boys of the Galaxy ploughed into my waiting fields of nasty mines, whilst being harassed by my Drones.

It was cheesy, it wouldn't work against most human players and it also made my machine struggle, but it was also EPIC! ;)
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Eleahen
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Eleahen » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:03 pm

One time as a very late game Morrigi I had a problem with a Human empire. Due to starting conditions they managed to grow larger than me and were throwing DN fleets at me every few turns.
It was a stalemate. Deflector and Absorber dread production managed to hold ground against neverending onslaught.
Then I designed AI/Absorber DE.
First combat against humans: they had 5 DNs, me - DN CnC with about 50 AI/Absorbers. When battle started I set them all to CtA and focused their fire on single targets.
Flock easily popped them one by one, and my post combat report showed only 8 losses.
That became a significant economical advantage in that war. :)

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mechanis
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by mechanis » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:23 pm

Speaking as a primarily Hiver player, I've found DEs the absolute best 'fast response' solution to invasions- particularly against the AI, which, well, makes some poor life choices about research and ship design. my typical fission era dessies will happily mulch whole fleets of cruisers well into the mid- to late-fusion era, no upgrades required- and antimatter dessie swarms can munch up even Dreadnoughts.

you'll take horrific losses doing so, of course, but destroyers are expendable- if I'm trading two destroyers for every cruiser of equivalent tech, I'm still coming out way ahead- and against the AI, well. I've dropped a fleet of 30-6 armors-C&C onto antimatter-teir Dreadnought fleets and murderized 4-5 of 'em before being wiped out.

the thing with using destroyers is it's very much a WWII Russian army playstyle-"we have reserves" essentially must describe your whole attitude. you also need a deft hand on the targeting- zapping command ships as rapidly as possible is a must, and knocking out the mission sections on cruisers will often defang them.

they aren't well-suited for attack- even a moderate defensive line needs a ludicrous number to crack- but there's no better choice for defensive fleets.
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