HIver DE point defence ships

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Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:28 pm

Sorry if this is a faq, but I'm somewhat at my wits end here and search isn't helping.

I don't normally play hivers, to the point that this is the first time I've tried their point defence ships and, well..

They *look* nice, with the rotating mission section and all, but it seems like they can't hit worth a damn. I've tried putting them all over my formation, even *surrounding* my formation, but they've yet to shoot down a single planet missile. Not for lack of accuracy - they just aren't trying at all.

It seems like they're only shooting at missiles in front of them, even that only some of the time - I've had a PD ship get blown up by repeated strikes by single missiles on its hammerhead section without even once shooting back - which is very counterintuitive and, more to the point, useless.

Am I doing something horribly wrong?
Is the hiver's lack of proficiency in the energy tree stopping point defence from working?
Are there too many hivers inside the ship, so they can't get at the turret controls?

Please tell me, before I get chewed up even worse by this AI. ;_;

Chernobog
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Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Chernobog » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:47 pm

Hiver PD ships are historically very good at their job. I have never seen behavior at all like what you're describing...but you haven't given much information. What are you equipping them with? More details, please!

I don't think I've used them at all since AMOC, though, so something may have broken them that I don't know about.

Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:56 pm

Right now, hammerhead, point defence and pulsed fission. Every single slot is filled with point-defence lasers.

It makes little sense to me, either. They'll shoot down exactly no planetary missiles on the approach to the planet; then they'll shoot down *some* of them, and most of the missiles from the DE satellite ring, but let some through. Let through some that are aimed at themselves, even.

IIRC they behaved the same way when I first got the game, which was part of why I never tried hivers afterwards, but.. okay, you can see for yourself.

I've copied the offending game to http://brage.info/~svein/pdfailure.sav - there's a fight on the very next turn in which you get to see the behaviour, and I've already got them in the best formation I've found yet. Which isn't very good.

Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:00 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention - regardless of whether that's proper style for hivers, you should run towards the planet to try bombarding it into oblivion with sniper cannons. Mostly because that's what I did.

The PD ships do seem to do a little better if they're standing still, see.

Overdose
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Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:27 am

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Overdose » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:21 am

Huh....odd, i guess you could just place some PD on your armor sections, and let them cover each other. It looked like the firing arcs weren't responding properly, you should see if it still does it if you have a mixed setting of weapons instead of a fully dedicated one.

Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:32 am

So that makes this a bug, then?

I'll try your suggestions, later; right now I've got some homework to take care of. (Probabilistic processes ftw)

Allattar
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Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Allattar » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:26 am

hmm
Just a check what kind of PD are you trying to use, laser or guass.
Laser PD is faster firing, lower damage, use it to knock out missiles.
Guass PD is slower firing, higher damage, use it to knock out torps.
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Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:28 am

As I mentioned earlier, laser PD.
Not that it matters. Even gauss PD should at least *try* to shoot down missiles.

Astatine
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Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Astatine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:58 am

The relative effectiveness of laser and gauss PD seems to have changed with AMoC. I find I can no longer rely solely on laser PD. I have to supplement it with either Gauss PD or weapons that can work for PD, or simply use more PD ships.

If you zoom in and watch carefully in slow motion you should be able to see that the lasers are hitting things, but they seem to struggle more than they used to to kill anything. I don't know if they are actually weaker or if it is just the effect of target-rich environments spreading their fire.

Gauss PD on the other hand definitely seems more accurate than it used to be. Even before AMoC though I would be inclined to consider using gauss PD for dedicated PD ships because the inaccuracy is compensated for by the sheer number of turrets.

One thing about the Hiver PD ships specifically worth mentioning is that they have nice coverage but because of the rotating section they can be saturated by well timed salvos. If the guns are firing at planet missiles coming from above or below then they are more vulnerable to missiles slipping through on the clockwise side of the rotating drum. Likewise a big salvo of regular missiles on the port side of the ship weakens the defense against planet missiles coming from above the plane.

Other races have similar issues but not quite the same - you can use either roll key with the other races to bring fresh PD to bear but Hivers should always roll in the direction the drum rotates.

If you can get fire control sections (AI is even better... but I assume that's not easily available) then use those and gauss PD on the drum part. You can throw in some laser PD on the head and tail for the extra range, but it is better not to and to use more PD ships, or one laser PD on regular ships instead. Even without fire control the AMoC gauss now seems pretty useful.
Life is sometimes stranger than fiction

Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:41 pm

Not really helping, I'm sorry.

As I've stated repeatedly, the point defence turrets aren't even firing. Even when it seems like they're well within range, even when I edited the weapon definition to turn them up to 11 so a single PD ship should be able to stand off a the massed fire of a fleet of DNs.. they just aren't trying.

Astatine
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Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Astatine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:43 pm

Vaughn wrote:Not really helping, I'm sorry.

As I've stated repeatedly, the point defence turrets aren't even firing. Even when it seems like they're well within range, even when I edited the weapon definition to turn them up to 11 so a single PD ship should be able to stand off a the massed fire of a fleet of DNs.. they just aren't trying.


Oh. Well, I can't help you there... but they do fire for me (well, for the AI Hiver - I'm playing Morrigi at the moment) and probably for everyone else. Is it possible you've got a typo in your mod? I'd suspect that sort of problem. (By the way, those "strength indicator numbers" at the bottom of weapon files do not do anything. They are just display labels, the earlier part of the file is what really counts).

One other obvious thing to try, just in case it isn't the modding, would be changing which aspect of the ships is meeting the missile attack. If you face the broadside of the PD ship towards the missiles you get much better coverage. Hivers should generally approach diagonally rather than head first too, and the same for running away. Sort of zig-zagging towards a planet. If you still can't get PD to fire then something is wrong with your installation.
Life is sometimes stranger than fiction

Vaughn
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:53 pm

No, I'm not playing with a mod, I just tried modding it to see if I couldn't make PD work. Couldn't.

Approaching diagonally makes no difference, though - the planet missiles come in from below anyhow, so why would it?

Actually, I posted a savegame above. See for yourself.

Astatine
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Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Astatine » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 pm

Well, all I can really say is that the Hiver PD is working for the AI in my game, red and gauss are both working for my Morrigi, and you're the first report of a problem.

You could try starting another game to test or reinstalling your copy of SotS or making a thread in tech support and attaching your savegame to that post. If you've found a bug then Kludgy will want to see the savegame. It would have been better not to mod it though - modding an active game has some complications attached.
Life is sometimes stranger than fiction

Vaughn
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:12 pm

Right, that's why I didn't try to mod it until *after* saving.

PD lasers act oddly when you turn off "shoot only at things within range", though. You should try it. It's fun.

Vaughn
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Re: HIver DE point defence ships

Post by Vaughn » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:56 pm

Well, they're still not firing. Or, to be more specific:

The hammerhead-mounted PD lasers do fire, at missiles incoming on the ecliptic, from the front. The PD section-mounted lasers don't.. they just don't, ever.

Could someone upload a savegame where they *do* fire, please? That way maybe I could figure something out.

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