weapons-mixed ships

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Grizzam
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weapons-mixed ships

Post by Grizzam » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:38 am

I've been using the same kind of tarka DE ER in the early game for quite some time, and i'm not sure if its a terribly great idea or maybe tarka DE ER's are just that good, but i'm wondering if you guys have any input on this.

Typically, I get (at least) green lasers really early for tarka, but my tarka ER's use a mix of green laser and gauss. I put the lasers where they will have the opporitunity to fire the most, and the gauss where they will have less opporitunity to fire, but a much better chance at doing it at closer range.

I think it works... it could be because the tiny mount mass drivers are pretty innacurate, so being on the side-mounts means they have a 'bigger' target to fire at (as it is closer) when its time to fire. The lasers, being more accurate, go on mounts where they will almost always be able to point and fire.

It seems the initial volley of regular vanilla gauss cannon thingies will miss at long range...

any input on this? Especially beyond the very-early phase where DE ER's are pretty useful :P

Allattar
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by Allattar » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:05 am

I tend to mix weapon types as well.
The benefits are that if someone is protected against a specific weapon style at least you can cause damage with the others.

Historically in naval terms though you see that Navies I think at the turn of the century decided that mixing weapon sizes was not helpful. I can see the thinking different sized guns for close medium and long range. However the different sized guns had different firing arcs and properties and so when you where in optimal range for one gun it was less than useful for others. Hence they standardised and ships where equipped with the same size guns to avoid confusion.

If you go for all the same weapon type you know you can hit an optimal range and try to maintain it. As you have seen green lasers are pretty good at hitting most things. But guass are not great till you get a bit closer.

Aesthetically I like the logic of that as it means your firing lasers up till the pass and then unleash the broadsides of guass as you move past them.
The only thing to do is try and watch closely between different styles of ship and compare the damage reports afterwards.

The other problem with mixed weapon types is as the game moves on your now researching several weapons trees, rather than pushing on one tree. Specialisation will give you more powerful weapons in one tree but it provides a clear counter for your enemy.
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Ripost
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by Ripost » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:41 am

Allattar wrote:Historically in naval terms though you see that Navies I think at the turn of the century decided that mixing weapon sizes was not helpful. I can see the thinking different sized guns for close medium and long range. However the different sized guns had different firing arcs and properties and so when you where in optimal range for one gun it was less than useful for others. Hence they standardised and ships where equipped with the same size guns to avoid confusion.

For beginning 20th century weapons, there were two reasons that they reduced the number of ifferent calibers of weapons. First, there was a darasitc increase of the potential range of any engagement. In order to achieve this, a sudden increase of the level of fire control was needed. By simplifying the number of different weapons/ballistic arcs involved, they were able to increase the effective accuracy (it is a lot easier to tell the difference between a 15" shell and a 5" shell at 5 miles than a 14" and a 11").

Secondly, they decided to specialize the "tasks" of the weapons. Large weapons were for punching holes in the increasingly heavy armor. Small, rapid-firing weapons in mobile mounts were for killing un- and lightly- armored targets (think Impactors and UV beamers). Remember, the level of armor was determined largely by the size of the ship, so you didn't have DEs sporting Adamantium Armor...and the 8" or even 10" guns one might have as a secondary weapon would bounce off a BB's belt (or most vitals), and wouldn't track a torpedo boat well.

So, don't take the historical naval example to heart.
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JPicasso
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by JPicasso » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:52 pm

What's even stranger, is jumping into a computer AI for a look around.

The AI had put point defense on one side of his ER, and gauss on the other.
I mix and match now and again, but I'm usually symetrical about the left/right axis. I suppose if one made judicious use of the 'roll' command in combat, it would work well.....

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Profound_Darkness
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by Profound_Darkness » Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:16 pm

I have done similar designs in the past. With careful management you get a ship that can kill all your missiles easily then flip around and kill all your ships easily (at least early on).

I did this on a larger scale when I briefly thought that the broadside button picked a specific side. Also the rolling might not be bad with broadside mode (and some micro). Set ships to broadside, enemy launches missiles, I roll, no more missiles and enemy says hello to my use of heavy hitting small mounts.
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the_ubernoob
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by the_ubernoob » Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:01 am

The reason I dislike asymetric designs like that is because of the old saying "no plan survives contact with the enemy."

From my experience, fielding a mix of dedicated warships and dedicated PD ships has outperformed the half/half ships.
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DervMan
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by DervMan » Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:54 am

You mean the "jack of all trades but master of none" thing, right?

For me, the only weapon that needs use in big numbers to be at least partially effective is the missile. I'll use mixed weapon ships to try to keep the enemy off-balance, often when I'm deciding what weapon family to devote attention to. ;)
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the_ubernoob
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by the_ubernoob » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:27 pm

I have no problem with mixed weapon designs. I'm using human BB/Armor cruisers with beams and massdrivers in my current game. One of my favorite liir designs was a BB/War cruiser with cutting beams/heavy-emitters and phaser PD.

My issue is with asymmetric mixed weapon designs that try to mix the benefits of two approaches with none of the drawbacks. The problem with these designs is they rely on the assumption that the enemy will always be on one side of the ship and perfectly timing barrel-rolls to make use of the other half's loadout.

In general, I prefer creating 'jack of all trades' ship just to chaos-proof a fleet. If missiles are a major problem, its much simpler and fewer things can go wrong if I implement a dedicated PD ship rather than spamming PD on the starboard side and timing barrel rolls with each volley.
"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, run in little circles, wave your arms and shout."
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Grizzam
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Re: weapons-mixed ships

Post by Grizzam » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:04 am

I have a new little trick that works pretty well to breathe life into the tarka DE in fusion era. I'd love to post the design, but for some reason windows didn't install paint and I dont think my default screencap file format will display as a picture here :(?

Anyways, its HH (or strafe)>Armor>Fusion (or SH-Fusion).

Smalls usually get PD if HH, 1 PD and the rest UV/Green if strafe. (this is dependant on the design, if I want a crusier support I'll go for HH, if I want a stand alone/support i'll go strafe... usually go HH if I didn't get UV lasers yet in either case)

The nifty mix though, is AP in the medium and DF rockets in the rear mounted medium turret.

Why so nifty? The rear mount tends not to see a lot of action until the action is all around, then target ships are usually close enough to be hit accurately with DF (especially in a DE vs CR setting).

Its also pretty useful when clearing out systems, as the sats can be largely ignored (at least light and med to a lesser degree) between the layered PD and the rear facing DF mount. Sats naturally want to come into range and just get hammered by collective DF fire ^_^

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