## Outnumbering Bonus

### Outnumbering Bonus

After talking about it over in the Support dreads and tech salvage thread, I've done some research unto how the outnumbering bonus (called the Numerical Superiority Bonus on the wiki) works. Here is what I have found.

General:

1) Every 5 ships that you outnumber the enemy gives you 2 bonus command points, no matter what size those ships are.

2) Satellites and Stations are not included in any ship count when determining the outnumbering bonus.

3) CnC ships do not matter for determining the outnumbering bonus, EXCEPT with DN fleets (see below).

4) You compare each ship size separately, then total up the results for all three ship sizes to see what the final total of ships is for determining the outnumbering bonus. You then divide that total by 5 (rounding down) and multiply the result by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4) to see how many bonus command points are available.

5) A mixed fleet of DE's, CR's and DN's will give you the most bonus command points: 8 (DE CP) + 28 (CR CP) + 48 (DN CP) = 84 bonus command points for a 20 DE, 70 CR, 120 DN fleet against no opposition.

DE's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 20 DE's. So when using DE only fleets, if the enemy has 16 or more DE's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for DE's, no matter how many you bring.

2) When both you and the enemy are using DE only fleets, the maximum number of Bonus DE's possible is 4 (you with 20 DE's, the enemy with 0 DE's).

3) If your DE's are opposed by CR's or DN's (but not other DE's) those CR's or DN's act as DE's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 CR's will force you to deploy 10 DE's to get one bonus DE.

CR's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 70 CR's. So when using CR only fleets, if the enemy has 66 or more CR's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for CR's, no matter how many you bring..

2) If the enemy has no CR's (only DE's or DN's) and you only have CR's (no DE's or DN's), then the enemy's DE's (or DN's) act as CR's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 enemy DE's or DN's will force you to deploy 20 CR's to get one bonus CR.

3) However, 5 enemy DE's or DN's opposed by 5 of your DE's or DN's means that you only have to deploy 15 CR's to get one bonus CR.

4) 4 bonus CR's seems to be the maximum possible number of bonus CR's without using DE's or DN's in your fleet.

DN's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 120 DN's. So when using DN only fleets, if the enemy has 116 or more DN's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for DN's, no matter how many you bring.

2) Unlike DE's or CR's, DN's need a CnC ship to maximize the outnumbering bonus. Without a CnC ship, DN only Fleets need to be 60 ships in size before the first bonus DN can be fielded. But with a DN CnC ship, the DN only fleet needs to only be 35 ships in size before the first bonus DN can be fielded. This is because without a CnC ship, even though you can field one DN, you only have 12 command points. Since a DN is 18 command points, the first 15 ships (6 bonus command points) are used to "pay" the command point cost for your first ship. With a CnC ship, you have 4 "left over" command points when you field the DN CnC and 2 other DN's. So the first bonus DN arrives 10 ships "early" (at 35 ships instead of at 45 ships).

3) If the enemy has no DN's (only DE's or CR's) and you only have DN's (no DE's or CR's), then the enemy's DE's (or CR's) act as DN's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 enemy DE's or CR's will force you to deploy 65 (or 40) DN's to get one bonus DN.

4) However, 5 enemy DE's or CR's opposed by 5 of your DE's or CR's means that you only have to deploy 60 (or 35) DN's to get one bonus DN.

5) 2 bonus DN's seems to be the maximum possible number of bonus DN's without using DE's or CR's in your fleet, even with a DN CnC in your fleet.

An example: Player A has 5 DE's and 30 CR's. Player B has 10 DE's and 5 CR's. Player A has a difference of -5 DE's, 25 CR's and 0 DN's for a total of 20. Player B has a difference of 5 DE's, -25 CR's and 0 DN's for a total of -20. Since Player A ends up with more total ships, Player A gets to use the Outnumbering Bonus, but not before we divide Player A's ship total by 5 and then multiply by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4) to get the bonus command points. In the end Player A has 8 bonus command points to play with and can field 1 extra CR and 1 extra DE or 4 extra DE's.

Thanks to Hunterada for the help with tracking down the DN limit.

General:

1) Every 5 ships that you outnumber the enemy gives you 2 bonus command points, no matter what size those ships are.

2) Satellites and Stations are not included in any ship count when determining the outnumbering bonus.

3) CnC ships do not matter for determining the outnumbering bonus, EXCEPT with DN fleets (see below).

4) You compare each ship size separately, then total up the results for all three ship sizes to see what the final total of ships is for determining the outnumbering bonus. You then divide that total by 5 (rounding down) and multiply the result by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4) to see how many bonus command points are available.

5) A mixed fleet of DE's, CR's and DN's will give you the most bonus command points: 8 (DE CP) + 28 (CR CP) + 48 (DN CP) = 84 bonus command points for a 20 DE, 70 CR, 120 DN fleet against no opposition.

DE's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 20 DE's. So when using DE only fleets, if the enemy has 16 or more DE's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for DE's, no matter how many you bring.

2) When both you and the enemy are using DE only fleets, the maximum number of Bonus DE's possible is 4 (you with 20 DE's, the enemy with 0 DE's).

3) If your DE's are opposed by CR's or DN's (but not other DE's) those CR's or DN's act as DE's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 CR's will force you to deploy 10 DE's to get one bonus DE.

CR's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 70 CR's. So when using CR only fleets, if the enemy has 66 or more CR's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for CR's, no matter how many you bring..

2) If the enemy has no CR's (only DE's or DN's) and you only have CR's (no DE's or DN's), then the enemy's DE's (or DN's) act as CR's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 enemy DE's or DN's will force you to deploy 20 CR's to get one bonus CR.

3) However, 5 enemy DE's or DN's opposed by 5 of your DE's or DN's means that you only have to deploy 15 CR's to get one bonus CR.

4) 4 bonus CR's seems to be the maximum possible number of bonus CR's without using DE's or DN's in your fleet.

DN's:

1) There is a hard upper limit, when determining the outnumbering bonus, of a fleet of 120 DN's. So when using DN only fleets, if the enemy has 116 or more DN's, you will not get a outnumbering bonus for DN's, no matter how many you bring.

2) Unlike DE's or CR's, DN's need a CnC ship to maximize the outnumbering bonus. Without a CnC ship, DN only Fleets need to be 60 ships in size before the first bonus DN can be fielded. But with a DN CnC ship, the DN only fleet needs to only be 35 ships in size before the first bonus DN can be fielded. This is because without a CnC ship, even though you can field one DN, you only have 12 command points. Since a DN is 18 command points, the first 15 ships (6 bonus command points) are used to "pay" the command point cost for your first ship. With a CnC ship, you have 4 "left over" command points when you field the DN CnC and 2 other DN's. So the first bonus DN arrives 10 ships "early" (at 35 ships instead of at 45 ships).

3) If the enemy has no DN's (only DE's or CR's) and you only have DN's (no DE's or CR's), then the enemy's DE's (or CR's) act as DN's for determining the outnumbering bonus. This means that 5 enemy DE's or CR's will force you to deploy 65 (or 40) DN's to get one bonus DN.

4) However, 5 enemy DE's or CR's opposed by 5 of your DE's or CR's means that you only have to deploy 60 (or 35) DN's to get one bonus DN.

5) 2 bonus DN's seems to be the maximum possible number of bonus DN's without using DE's or CR's in your fleet, even with a DN CnC in your fleet.

An example: Player A has 5 DE's and 30 CR's. Player B has 10 DE's and 5 CR's. Player A has a difference of -5 DE's, 25 CR's and 0 DN's for a total of 20. Player B has a difference of 5 DE's, -25 CR's and 0 DN's for a total of -20. Since Player A ends up with more total ships, Player A gets to use the Outnumbering Bonus, but not before we divide Player A's ship total by 5 and then multiply by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4) to get the bonus command points. In the end Player A has 8 bonus command points to play with and can field 1 extra CR and 1 extra DE or 4 extra DE's.

Thanks to Hunterada for the help with tracking down the DN limit.

Last edited by Nspace on Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.

"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Thanks for taking a look into this. Looking forward to further results.

Zed's TARs (sample):

Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies

Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul

Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies

Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul

Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Ohh interesting! Never thought it might be a hard ceiling on total numbers..

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

So the old ratio of every 5 ships gets you 2 extra CP stands, but there's been some serious mods to the individual classes that go above and beyond what's in the wiki.

Interesting.

Interesting.

(Spreadsheet-using, statistics-wielding, game mechanics analyzing bastard)

- fiendishrabbit
**Posts:**1791**Joined:**Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:37 pm

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

It's an interesting implementation of the WWI screening tactics (ie, the use of lighter ships to scout and preventing enemy ships from getting close enough to your formation to use effective short range weapons).

Of course SOTS doesn't have anything equivalent to the torpedo, but still I suppose it's to simulate smaller ships running interference to prevent effective deployment of larger ships.

So if you want to maximize outnumbering bonus you need to deploy "As many destroyers as he has plus 20 more. As many cruisers as he has plus 70 more. The rest dreadnoughts"?

Of course SOTS doesn't have anything equivalent to the torpedo, but still I suppose it's to simulate smaller ships running interference to prevent effective deployment of larger ships.

So if you want to maximize outnumbering bonus you need to deploy "As many destroyers as he has plus 20 more. As many cruisers as he has plus 70 more. The rest dreadnoughts"?

You can't trust the Liir. Never trust someone that smiles all the time.

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

I've finished checking if the numbers change if your CR fleet is opposed by DE's. Unsurprisingly, the numbers don't change. I've updated my first post.

No, not quite. 20 and 70 are hard limits. Only the first 20 DE's and the first 70 CR's in your fleet are counted. So if your opponent has 16 or more DE's, you will not get any command points for your DE's outnumbering his, no matter how many you bring. Similarly, if your opponent brings 66 or more CR's, you will not get any command points for your CR's outnumbering his, no matter how many you bring. I'm going to assume that the same holds true for DN's, though I don't have that upper limit just yet.

But if your opponent only brings between 56 and 60 CR's (inclusive), your 20 DE, 70 CR fleet will still get 4 bonus command points that you can use to deploy 2 additional DE's, even if your opponent has 20 DE's himself, though you won't be able to deploy another CR without 2 bonus command points from outnumbering his DN's by 5.

Disclamer: Based on what I've seen so far, I think the following is how the Outnumbering Bonus is calculated, but I haven't tested it fully. However I just tested the example and the outcome is 4 extra DE's as expected.

Another way to think about it is that instead of comparing the total number of ships, you compare each ship size separately, assign bonus command points to which ever side has the most of that ship size, then total up all three ship sizes to see who gets the final total. You then subtract the smaller total from the larger to see how many bonus command points are available.

So for example: Player A has 5 DE's and 30 CR's. Player B has 10 DE's and 5 CR's. Player A gets 0 command points for his DE's, but gets 10 command points for his CR's. Player B gets 2 command points for his DE's, but gets 0 command points for his CR's. Since Player A ends up with more total command points, Player A gets to use those points, but not before we subtract Player B's point total from Player A's point total. In the end Player A has 8 bonus command points to play with and can field 1 extra CR and 1 extra DE or 4 extra DE's.

fiendishrabbit wrote:So if you want to maximize outnumbering bonus you need to deploy "As many destroyers as he has plus 20 more. As many cruisers as he has plus 70 more. The rest dreadnoughts"?

No, not quite. 20 and 70 are hard limits. Only the first 20 DE's and the first 70 CR's in your fleet are counted. So if your opponent has 16 or more DE's, you will not get any command points for your DE's outnumbering his, no matter how many you bring. Similarly, if your opponent brings 66 or more CR's, you will not get any command points for your CR's outnumbering his, no matter how many you bring. I'm going to assume that the same holds true for DN's, though I don't have that upper limit just yet.

But if your opponent only brings between 56 and 60 CR's (inclusive), your 20 DE, 70 CR fleet will still get 4 bonus command points that you can use to deploy 2 additional DE's, even if your opponent has 20 DE's himself, though you won't be able to deploy another CR without 2 bonus command points from outnumbering his DN's by 5.

Disclamer: Based on what I've seen so far, I think the following is how the Outnumbering Bonus is calculated, but I haven't tested it fully. However I just tested the example and the outcome is 4 extra DE's as expected.

Another way to think about it is that instead of comparing the total number of ships, you compare each ship size separately, assign bonus command points to which ever side has the most of that ship size, then total up all three ship sizes to see who gets the final total. You then subtract the smaller total from the larger to see how many bonus command points are available.

So for example: Player A has 5 DE's and 30 CR's. Player B has 10 DE's and 5 CR's. Player A gets 0 command points for his DE's, but gets 10 command points for his CR's. Player B gets 2 command points for his DE's, but gets 0 command points for his CR's. Since Player A ends up with more total command points, Player A gets to use those points, but not before we subtract Player B's point total from Player A's point total. In the end Player A has 8 bonus command points to play with and can field 1 extra CR and 1 extra DE or 4 extra DE's.

"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Sounds like this should be moved to suggestions as a "Hey, this needs to be fixed better".

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

why?...it is working exactly as designed if I understand nspaces post correctly

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Preliminary research has indicated that SotS does not like over 250 dreadnoughts.

edit: Further analysis reveals that 262 dreadnoughts and ~100 supporting ships will reliably crash the game every single time on my PC. If any of you want to have a go with it, feel free. I'm going to try again with a tad bit smaller fleet.

edit2: 189 dreads, 10 supporting ships is still too much. Hmm.

edit: Further analysis reveals that 262 dreadnoughts and ~100 supporting ships will reliably crash the game every single time on my PC. If any of you want to have a go with it, feel free. I'm going to try again with a tad bit smaller fleet.

edit2: 189 dreads, 10 supporting ships is still too much. Hmm.

(Spreadsheet-using, statistics-wielding, game mechanics analyzing bastard)

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Edit: Check that. A fleet of DN's only, without a CnC ship, does not get the first bonus DN until the fleet size is 60 (24 bonus command points). But the second ship shows up with a fleet size of 105 (18 additional bonus command points). So I'm not sure what to expect: will the upper limit for DN's be 180, 195 or 240? I'll know more later.

Original Post: If the DN's match the pattern set by the CR's and DE's, 180 DN's should be the upper limit. That would be the amount needed to field 4 bonus DN's when there is no opposition (18 bonus command points = 45 additional ships). The next level to try should be 225.

Original Post: If the DN's match the pattern set by the CR's and DE's, 180 DN's should be the upper limit. That would be the amount needed to field 4 bonus DN's when there is no opposition (18 bonus command points = 45 additional ships). The next level to try should be 225.

"Quando omni flunkus, mortati" - "When all else fails, play dead"

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

A fleet of 5 DE, 5 CA and 135 DN, with 62 CP from command dreadnought and 1 CP technology, when opposed by 1 DN, allows a total of 2 DE, 0 cruisers and 6 DN.

112 CP required for that - 62 CP (command dread & tech) - 4 CP (bonus from the smaller ships) = 46 CP.

Assuming it follows the same 5 ships = 2 bonus CP progression, this means that 115 dreadnoughts were counted in this case. One DN worth of bonus was presumably canceled out by the opposing DN, so it probably caps at 120 dreadnoughts.

Assuming that is the case, an unopposed fleet of the same size should be able to bring in 1 CA and 6 DN. I'll have to test that when I have more time.

Given all of the above, the absolute biggest fleet you can see in SOTS when attacking a planet with only sats for defense should be as follows:

48 (DN CP) + 28 (CA CP) + 8 (DE CP) + 8 (bonus tech CP) + 76 (Zuul / Hiver Flagship Command = 168 CP.

That's 9 dreadnoughts and your choice of a cruiser or 3 destroyers. Or if you're feeling particularly insane, 1 dreadnought and 75 destroyers.

112 CP required for that - 62 CP (command dread & tech) - 4 CP (bonus from the smaller ships) = 46 CP.

Assuming it follows the same 5 ships = 2 bonus CP progression, this means that 115 dreadnoughts were counted in this case. One DN worth of bonus was presumably canceled out by the opposing DN, so it probably caps at 120 dreadnoughts.

Assuming that is the case, an unopposed fleet of the same size should be able to bring in 1 CA and 6 DN. I'll have to test that when I have more time.

Given all of the above, the absolute biggest fleet you can see in SOTS when attacking a planet with only sats for defense should be as follows:

48 (DN CP) + 28 (CA CP) + 8 (DE CP) + 8 (bonus tech CP) + 76 (Zuul / Hiver Flagship Command = 168 CP.

That's 9 dreadnoughts and your choice of a cruiser or 3 destroyers. Or if you're feeling particularly insane, 1 dreadnought and 75 destroyers.

(Spreadsheet-using, statistics-wielding, game mechanics analyzing bastard)

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Nspace wrote:So I'm not sure what to expect: will the upper limit for DN's be 180, 195 or 240? I'll know more later.

Oy. My computer is already calling me bad names. I'll install a 64-bit operating system and 4 gigs more RAM, and see if that lets me play with 180 DNs.

(Spreadsheet-using, statistics-wielding, game mechanics analyzing bastard)

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Don't worry about it. You are correct, 120 ships is the upper limit of DN's when determining the outnumbering bonus.

I've gone ahead and updated the first post.

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Before this goes to the wiki, two other possible permutations that might affect the outcome:

Issue 1:

3 of one ship class, 2 of another- does this increase CP? I can try to test this tomorrow if nobody gets the chance with a 2 CR, 3 DE fleet from that savegame and see if everything deploys vs an empty planet.

If it does, then it means ship numbers are totaled, then divided by 5. If not, then the individual ship classes are divided by 5, then the total bonus is added together.

Issue 2:

What about DN-class stations?

Issue 1:

3 of one ship class, 2 of another- does this increase CP? I can try to test this tomorrow if nobody gets the chance with a 2 CR, 3 DE fleet from that savegame and see if everything deploys vs an empty planet.

If it does, then it means ship numbers are totaled, then divided by 5. If not, then the individual ship classes are divided by 5, then the total bonus is added together.

Issue 2:

What about DN-class stations?

(Spreadsheet-using, statistics-wielding, game mechanics analyzing bastard)

### Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Issue 1:

A 3 DE, 2 CR fleet gets 2 bonus CP when facing no opposition. A 8 DE, 2 CR fleet gets 2 bonus CP when facing 5 opposition DE's. And the total number of ships is divided by 5 and then multiplied by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4).

Issue 2:

Stations have no effect on the outnumbering bonus.

A 3 DE, 2 CR fleet gets 2 bonus CP when facing no opposition. A 8 DE, 2 CR fleet gets 2 bonus CP when facing 5 opposition DE's. And the total number of ships is divided by 5 and then multiplied by 2 (or just multiply the total number of ships by .4).

Issue 2:

Stations have no effect on the outnumbering bonus.

SotS 1 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots1/Main_Page

SotS 2 wiki: http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/SotS2_Codex

### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests