Outnumbering Bonus

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silvaril
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Way cool! :)

Post by silvaril » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:07 am

Heya

Ta muchly Folks! :D
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TrashMan
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by TrashMan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:53 am

Why is the outnumbering limit bigger for bigger ship classes? Shouldn't it be the other way around? (120 DE's, 66 CR's and 20 DN's )

When will anyone wield 120 DN's in a single fleet? :|
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Mesaia
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Mesaia » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:06 am

It's supposed to be a counter against DE spam remember?

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SpardaSon21
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by SpardaSon21 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:07 am

Kerberos didn't need to make 120 DN's count the same as 20 DE's for purposes of outnumbering. They could have implemented a scaling system where larger vessels provide a larger relative contribution to the outnumbering bonus and then set a cap on maximum CP provided per ship size.

Mesaia
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Mesaia » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:51 am

I don't think that your conclusion is altogether in line with Nspace's findings..

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TrashMan
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by TrashMan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:21 pm

Mesaia wrote:It's supposed to be a counter against DE spam remember?


How does that change anything I said?

Why is 20 a DE upper limit, but 120 a upper DN limit?
One could just use 20 for everything. Which types of ships you you going to have more? Which types of ships will logicly be more numbers?


I dunno.. The reasoning behind those number escapes me.
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Hunterada
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Hunterada » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:26 pm

SpardaSon, for the purpose of the bonus, a ship is a ship is a ship.

But destroyers stop counting relatively early. Any destroyer after the 20th doesn't matter. But you can have quite a few cruisers, and a heck of a lot of dreadnoughts providing you with a bonus of 2 CP per 5 ships.

I think the idea in this case is to encourage people to build fleets that actually focus on combat power, rather than focus on swarming hordes of cheap little destroyers.
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Mecron
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Mecron » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:03 pm

lol and people wonder why we don't bother to go into detail about things when explaining them :bangdesk:

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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by sheridangreen » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:23 pm

This looks good, but I have a minor nitpick. The first post says that if you bring 20 DEs and the enemy has 16 DEs, you will not get bonus CPs. This is not entirely correct, since you could bring 20 DEs and 1 CR versus his 16 DEs, and you get an extra 2 CPs. This could be clarified by saying that in DE-only fleets, you could not get a bonus. Same thing for CRs and DNs.

----

To help put the concept of comparing ship amounts by class in another way, here it is in equation form:

X = myDE + myCR + myDN – enemyDE – enemyCR – enemyDN

where:
myDE, enemyDE is capped at 20
myCR, enemyCR is capped at 70
myDN, enemyDN is capped at 120

If X is positive, X * 0.4 = Number of extra command points for you
If X is negative, X * -0.4 = Number of extra command points for your enemy


Example 1: You have 25 DEs, 5 CRs, and 8 DNs, and he has 10 DEs, 10 CRs, and 3 DNs.

myDE = 20, because it must be capped at 20 even though you have 25. No other values need to be capped.
X = 20 + 5 + 8 – 10 – 10 – 3 = 10
10 * 0.4 = 4 extra CPs for you


Example 2: You have 0 DEs, 35 CRs, and 6 DNs, and he has 30 DEs, 0 CRs, and 14 DNs.

enemyDE = 20, because it must be capped at 20 even though he has 30. No other values need to be capped.
X = 0 + 35 + 6 – 20 – 0 – 14 = 7
7 * 0.4 = 2.8 extra CPs for you (although you can obviously only use 2 of them)

----

It is for this reason all of my Task Forces generally have 20 DEs in them, plus whatever CRs and DNs are needed to do the job. Any more than 20 do not matter, and it is not really worth it to have 70 CRs and 120 DNs in a single fleet. If you have that many, split them up and attack from multiple directions. But DEs are cheap, so it doesn’t hurt to add 20 DEs to any fleet you have to help with your ON bonus.

ZedF
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:19 pm

Here's an interesting thing...

I have just started a battle. I have 40-odd destroyers at this battle. The enemy has 20 cruisers. I have no cruisers, he has no destroyers.

At the start of the battle, I got 4 bonus destroyers for outnumbering, whereas the Zuul have 8 cruisers on the field. Without outnumbering, they would normally be able to field 7.

So it is possible for both sides to get an outnumbering bonus. 8)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Space Voyager
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Space Voyager » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:57 pm

I think this was possible once upon a time, but Mecron stated that it was a "bug" (it affects performance) and said it was removed. Meaning, only what one side had in excess was supposed to be taken into account.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

ZedF
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:03 pm

Well it just happened now, in 1.7.2...
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Nspace
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Nspace » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:54 pm

Are you sure that the Zuul don't have Combat Algorithms or Holographic Tactics?
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ZedF
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by ZedF » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:34 pm

It's early fission era. It's theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. I can double check when I get home.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Space Voyager
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Re: Outnumbering Bonus

Post by Space Voyager » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:39 pm

If true, I guess it would be good to post a thread in the support forum, just to stay on the safe side.
ErinysSolForce Intelligence has great difficulty penetrating Liir society to that depth, for obvious reasons. fibioLack of scuba gear?

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