DN only v DN and CR escorts?

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The Apprentice
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DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by The Apprentice » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:04 am

Every time I've tried to employ DN only fleets I have found them less effective than Armada CnC's with CR escorts.

I've seen some interesting DN designs mentioned here (for example, the Siege DN w/Stealth Armor), but not a lot of discussion about DN only fleets.

Myself, I mainly end up using a DN CnC with Battlebridge/Barrage CR's. This could be because I play Hiver, and Hiver ships seem to me the slowest to reposition in tactical compared to the other races. So, I compensate with multiple (smaller) weapon platforms that are more likely to be in the right position.

Anyway, I'm curious what DN fleets others use to success, and what race they play when doing so. Or does almost no one use DN heavy fleets?
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Space Voyager
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Space Voyager » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:26 am

As Hivers that may actually be the best option, their ships are fortresses anyway and cruisers have a good chance to survive when breaking from combat.

Other races' CRs (IMO) have a lesser survivability chance. I like to field as many DNs as possible (usually three) and CRs to fill the CnC gap. That gives me the most chances to end the fight with minimal losses.
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Nathan
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Nathan » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:31 pm

Cruiser Swarming is as much of a viable option as destroyer swarming is, but I prefer Dreadnaughts for late game.

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The Magus
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by The Magus » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:36 pm

IMX cruisers tend to be a better workhorse for the investment, especially if you have good weapons for them. A pack of HCL cruisers still have plenty of bite against an enemy dread, with slightly more flexibility than your own, and are easier to form new fast attack fleets to send out more fleets at once. That said, I also don't often get to DN's before the endgame. The last time I did, I had to have different specialty DN's to deal with the different situations each front in the war had, more so than the CR strike forces at the time.

The Zuul were throwing their entire economy into DNs, so I needed assault/blazer (or something like that...whatever puts a bazillion HCL's up front) to deal with them, but whenever I deployed THOSE it was also paramount that I had two CR escorts to screen for boarding pods and missile fire. So DNs good for me, bad for them because their economy just couldn't continue to build that kind of fleet against me, although their DNs did catch me off guard and force me out of their space for 20 or so turns. Liir were still using nimble, obscenely armed CRs and AM projectors, so the DN's in their sectors needed to be tailored to hitting fast moving, punishment packing CR hordes and didn't need the CR escort as badly. In both circumstances my losses were significantly less thanks to DN hardiness than what a pure CR strike force would have gotten me.

Siege drivers are kind of game changing though in the right circumstances. They singlehandedly made finishing off a stubborn and way too well dug-in Tarka empire crumble in a matter of decades with minimal investment on their front from me. Although, even with genetic tailoring and atmospheric adaptation whenever they surrendered a planet to me it usually ended up wiping out all Tarka on the surface. Our HR difference was enormous, but damn... :(
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Coyote27
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Coyote27 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:53 pm

I think it depends on how you want to use the fleet more than anything. DNs should probably be used as aggressively as possible, try to force engagements with them and take control of the area because while they're great at concentrating a lot of firepower in one area and absorbing punishment, they're not tactically mobile and flexible enough to respond to the enemy's moves if you lose the initiative. If your tactics are more about exploiting enemy weakness than your own strength, then you'll want more special-role ships, which means cruisers and destroyers. Additionally, attrition is a big thing - if you're fighting on your own turf it's a lot easier to keep a reinforcement line of fresh, cheap destroyers flowing in than if you're burning a road to the enemy's homeworld and need to be able to repair what you have rather than letting the offensive stall while you wait for backup.
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The Apprentice
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by The Apprentice » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:31 am

Yeah...

I tend (when I play Hiver) to treat my fleet as a ponderous firebase, gradually moving toward the enemy when I have the advantage. Even with AM engines and Ionic thrusters, it takes a long time to re-orient on the enemy if they get behind me. Having one DN and a lot of CR's tends to bolster this "playstyle/I can't get anything else to work" the most.

The only specialized Hiver DN's that come to mind are BioWar and SiegeDriver... both of which I assume would be suicide farcast at the enemy in single ship increments.
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Coyote27 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:50 am

The Apprentice wrote:I tend (when I play Hiver) to treat my fleet as a ponderous firebase, gradually moving toward the enemy when I have the advantage. Even with AM engines and Ionic thrusters, it takes a long time to re-orient on the enemy if they get behind me. Having one DN and a lot of CR's tends to bolster this "playstyle/I can't get anything else to work" the most.


Add in some DEs (especially pursuit) and drones if you need more mobility, I'm sure it'll help out.
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The Apprentice
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by The Apprentice » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:02 am

Hmm... the pursuit section you say? I generally keep the medium mounts of the engine section stocked with missiles to catch fleeing AI ships (and keep battle micro to a minimum). The pursuit section would be quite a change- I'll give it a whirl. Thanks for the idea!
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ZedF
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:08 am

Note that pursuit is a mission section, not a drive section...
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

The Apprentice
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by The Apprentice » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:15 am

ZedF wrote:Note that pursuit is a mission section, not a drive section...


Right. I was referring to the fact that I normally use missiles in the engine section to kill ships that are attempting to escape my fleet (generally support ships left over after the destruction of the AI's main fleet).

Adding DE pursuit ships to the mix could free up those medium mounts for more close range weapons.
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Inst
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Inst » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:08 am

Heavy beam CRs work well with a DN CNC for the simple reason that you actually WANT your beam CRs to die. If they die, then you don't have to wait the 18-30 second cooldown for their beam to recharge and reinforcements pop up instantly next to your Armada CNC with a fully-charged beam laser.

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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:32 am

That's a rather wasteful way to think about it. You'll never get very high casualty ratios with that approach and you'll be forced to use most of your ship production for reinforcements rather than for building new fleets.

I'd far rather build CAs that are capable of countering whatever weapons the enemy is using and/or are sufficiently tailored to enemy weaknesses that they kill the enemy quickly and my casualty rate isn't so much of an issue.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

Mesaia
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Mesaia » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:10 am

Zedf's right, you really don't want your CRs to die just so another CR can come in and pop off their heavy beams once.

With CRs and DNs, you could try letting your DN take the brunt of the enemy attack while your CRs then shoot them up. This supposes that your CRs have much more firepower than your DNs whereas your DNs have much more survivability than the CRs.

Allattar
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by Allattar » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:48 am

Sounds like Morrigi Blazer cruisers then :)
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Re: DN only v DN and CR escorts?

Post by U.E.D.C. » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:24 pm

Ive found DN CNC plus PT Boats (pursuit with pulse phasers if availible) to be quite effective

or DN CNC plus brawler DN plus impactor DN
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