Late game DE's can they be worth it?

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Brethern
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Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Brethern » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:35 pm

The common statement is that once you get dreadnoughts destroyers are useless. Is this a statement of fact or an old wives tale? To me once you have the production capability to get DN's DE's are dirt cheap. They are also faster than all the other ships.(assuming anti matter) The only flaw is that they have less shooty and are made of paper. If I were to dedicate them to a single spine turret or made them stand off ships and use them to kite the enemy would they be worth it?

Also what about giving them a cloaking section and then using them for hit and runs? Are any of these things valid ideas to keep destroyers in service? Are there any good ways to use them that I might not know?


Thanks.

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Kaan'Ish
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Kaan'Ish » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:06 pm

Destroyers work excellently for mounting torpedoes, if you want to free up your cruisers for other duties, or for more general gunship designs. They are also the only way to bring most ECM capabilities (unless you use dreadnoughts with EW sections, which is a bit of a waste of a battleship), and the most command-effective way to bring deep-scanning capabilities to the battlefield, which is very useful indeed if you are using impactors, or other artillery vessels.

That's the way I tend to use them as Tarka, keeping them at the back of the formation so they can shoot disrupter torpedoes at people, and let my artillery fire at range, while keeping them from being targeted too much. They also tend to get a lot of point defence turrets, so they can act as an emergency defence net for my command ship if it gets targeted by missiles of any sort.

They may also be effective with high-end shield technology and a suitable gun-filled command section (such as strafe), allowing them to make battle passes at the enemy, retreating until the shield recharges, and then making another run. I have yet to try this out, but it sounds theoretically sound. It would probably work better with Liir or Morrigi, who are more likely to be able to research the combination of advanced technology needed to make this sort of design work.

Seraph
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Seraph » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:08 pm

Honestly, DEs become "useless" for me as soon as cruisers appear. There's such a huge jump in power and defense between them CR compared to between CRs and DNs.
However "useless" is in quotes because they aren't truly useless. They, for me, take on more of a support role, sticking a Deep Scan on them for use in battle while my command ships use shields or something, or using the point defense ones so my larger ships can have more small guns. There's also the wild weasel, although I don't think I have ever once used wild weasel.

As for offense, Using them as mass minelayers has had good results for me since you can spread the mines over a large area quickly. Also they do have the ability to use shields and deflectors/disruptors. Combining that with a strafe with pulse phasers will make them do some damage. Putting them anywhere near weapons is a bad idea imo. Torpedos would probably be better than spinal mounts since you could keep them away from the fight and lobbing in torpedos. Also they do add the CP bonus, so I tend to build them and stick them in fleets so I can get a few extra ships out, even if I'm not playing as Morrigi.

For other applications, you can stick them in trade routes to deal with pirates or around planets to deal with small VN.

Torezu
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Torezu » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:12 pm

Brethern wrote:The common statement is that once you get dreadnoughts destroyers are useless. Is this a statement of fact or an old wives tale? To me once you have the production capability to get DN's DE's are dirt cheap. They are also faster than all the other ships.(assuming anti matter) The only flaw is that they have less shooty and are made of paper. If I were to dedicate them to a single spine turret or made them stand off ships and use them to kite the enemy would they be worth it?

Also what about giving them a cloaking section and then using them for hit and runs? Are any of these things valid ideas to keep destroyers in service? Are there any good ways to use them that I might not know?

None of us are old wives that I know of. :D

DEs aren't much faster than other ships, but they sure accelerate faster (except Liir - then they're all pretty much the same). So, they're good for the roles that don't put them in a ton of danger, or in which you need cheap ships (or both):

1.) Point defense, with or without an actual Point Defense section
2.) Swarm tactics: overwhelming ships that have no small mount anti-ship weapons to help against them (although medium mount guns can work)
3.) Cloaked or ER Deep Scan (non-combat)
4.) Cloaked, PD, or shielded Deep Scan (combat)
5.) Wild Weasel, with perhaps some other helpful section, or just as cheap as you can make them
6.) Disruptor or Deflector section to absorb opening salvos
7.) Planet defense, for the low building/maintenance cost and the ability to pretty much negate asteroids/VN/specters (in sufficient numbers, say 4-6).
8.) More uses I haven't considered.

Some of the good things about DEs are boarding pod immunity, acceleration and maneuverability, and low CP use. The bad things are low damage/CP, no large mounts so fairly short range, and fragility with the accompanying need to replace them constantly.

Pre-post edit: ninja'd twice, but I added some. :|

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DervMan
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by DervMan » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:14 pm

I've used Destroyers from time to time in order to mix up the enemy. It can throw a spanner in the works; I've used the Electromagnetic Torpedo weaponry in order to support my other warships too...

Sometimes, mounting lots of ballistics onto lots of Destroyers can push the enemy ships about the battle too, whilst dividing the enemy firepower...
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Seraph
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Seraph » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:27 pm

Torezu wrote: no large mounts so fairly short range

Well there's sniper cannons, missiles, and torpedoes, and they still still use drones if you wanted to for some reason.

Oh speaking of carriers, using DEs for their assault shuttles is still good if you don't have the cruiser versions, or if you just want a lot of cheap ones.

Brethern
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Brethern » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:49 pm

Seraph wrote:
Torezu wrote: no large mounts so fairly short range

Well there's sniper cannons, missiles, and torpedoes, and they still still use drones if you wanted to for some reason.

Oh speaking of carriers, using DEs for their assault shuttles is still good if you don't have the cruiser versions, or if you just want a lot of cheap ones.
Could you elaborate more into why you say use drones if you wanted to for some reason are you saying drones on DE's aren't good or are they better suited for cruisers.

So to sum up so far if you can have your DE's in a support role then they are useful, or have them with ranged weapons that have tracking and decent accuracy.

ZedF
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by ZedF » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:42 pm

I suspect he's thinking that by the time DNs are in play most often it will be hard to get drones that are sufficiently survivable and damaging in the face of enemy PD, which may or may not be true depending on what forms of PD and beam weapons your opponent has access to.
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Seraph
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Seraph » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:45 pm

ZedF wrote:I suspect he's thinking that by the time DNs are in play most often it will be hard to get drones that are sufficiently survivable and damaging in the face of enemy PD, which may or may not be true depending on what forms of PD and beam weapons your opponent has access to.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

Although, as a side thing, I do prefer cruisers for drones because they can be effective with their command/engine sections even if their drones immediately die, however I usually don't go far enough up the drone tree to get them. The drones themselves aren't really better or worse if it's a cruiser or 3 DEs.

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silvaril
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...

Post by silvaril » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:56 am

Heya

While the capability of DE swarms has shifted somewhat from the original release...

I recently wandered into an online game as the 7th ranked Hiver in an 8 player game.

The two nearest positions were AM Liir and Tarka, both currently being run by the AI, both with AM and DN capabilities.

The position I took over had Fusion and DN capabilities, and the AI I took over from had been pumping out lotsa DN's to try and gain more ground.

The AI positions had adapted to the increased ship tonnage they were facing.
Consequently the Liir CR's took the AI-designed shipping apart in either manual or AR combat.

What they were not capable of defeating was the sudden onset of DE shipping which arrived from my build queues.

DE for multiple reasons:
1 ) Gate Capacity
2 ) Production Speed
3 ) One DE draws AM Projector fire, the others swarm and kill the CR

I went from losing multiple CR or even DN craft per kill, to losing 1 DE per CR killed.
Admittedly, Quark Armour, very helpful.


The big one was gate capacity, which was at 36 when I took over.
( DN Yes, Gate Amplifiers No... wth? )

For that, I can get 3 DN's, or 6 CR's, or one CnC CR and 30 DE's, or 1 CnC DN and 24 DE's...
( and yes, Amplifiers was on the short list for Tech's needed )
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Brethern
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Brethern » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:58 am

So to sum it up sheer numbers make de's worth while. along with them in support roles I think I understand.

kjn
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by kjn » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:15 pm

Numbers by themselves doesn't help, at least no anymore than other ships.

If you face high-damage, relatively inaccurate, and slow-firing weapons (eg projectors, impactors, mass shotguns, or even heavy beams), then DE swarms can be very powerful, if they are properly equipped.

But DEs against a DN equipped with relatively quick-firing and accurate weapons, as pulse phasers, x-ray lasers, APMDs, or chakkars, then the DEs are going to have trouble. Destroyers are also vulnerable to long-range area-of-effect weapons, like the various cloud missiles or detonating torpedoes.

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ProjectLevyDelta
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by ProjectLevyDelta » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:28 am

with high end tech and high end armor armor you can wipe out literally countless of DN and CR fleets with the Mass of DE's and your Flagship :)
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Lithose
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Lithose » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:57 pm

Don't think of it so much as ship type vs ship type (DN vs DE)..It's more about weapon vs ship type. If they are fielding things like Impactors, Cutting Beams, and Stormers ect (Or any high damage, high reload time) then DE's are extremely effective. Not just because they are "hard to hit"...But because, on many of those weapons, damage is wasted heavily on a DE simply because all the turrets fire at once and damage often comes in a stream (Or all at once, with high delay, like impactors). So even though the DE can only absorb, say, 2-3k, more than double that amount of damage might have been thrown at it.

That excess tends to bring the DPS of those big guns way, way down. So, against anti-capital ship "big guns" DE's are extremely cost effective. (It's a good thing there are no modifiers in this game for sacrificing whole crews in the name of efficiency. :twisted: )

On the other hand, a more generalized DN, with mostly shorter cool down heavy/medium/small weapons (Like AP Gauss, Phasers, Cannons (Heavy or otherwise) ect) will wipe the floor with a whole mess of DE's. Especially if the builder didn't ignore high accuracy weapons to go with his heavier weapons.

So it really depends what your opponent is fielding. Against the AI, a lot of times I'll tear them up with a string of DN's...When they start responding with Blazers/Impactors and other anti-capital weapons, I'll recall my DN fleets and send out a few DE fleets.

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Red Spot
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Re: Late game DE's can they be worth it?

Post by Red Spot » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:23 pm

Emitter DEs with Magno, kicking some DN-behinds.

You need to be clever in their use but they sure are worth it. If you, in the above situation, cant field for instance decent blazers you are better of using well-equiped DEs. Losing a few is trivial on your econ and heavy slow firing weapons on a DN may be hurtfull, they are also overkill ... IF they hit.

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