So, Leviathans...

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patton1942
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by patton1942 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:30 pm

I was going to simply point out that as long as your smaller battle riders can mount a weapon system capable of inflicting damage to a leviathan, there are advantages of using smaller, cheaper "disposable" craft over the large and unwieldy, massively expensive battleships.
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KradenX
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by KradenX » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:56 pm

Ok this battleship vs. carrier argument has gotten out of hand.

People, this is SPACE.

On the water, what must you have on a carrier? A landing strip. What does this take the place of? A battleship's deck guns.

Do space ships need a landing strip? No, they don't. They need a hanger or an external magnetic lock. Does having either of these things remove all the guns on board of a space fairing vessel? No. On top of that, if a LV is 3 times bigger than a DN, that means it's touching a mile long. (Btw, if DEs are 30 meters long, then CRs are 90, DNs are 270, and LVs will be 810, give or take a few. For modern size comparison, if I have the sizes correct, the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower supercarrier is BIGGER than a SOTS DN, running at 330 meters or so.)

A 330 M long supercarrier today can carry around 90 fixed wing aircraft.

Now, imagine how many drones or battleriders could run on a LV.

Or better yet, think what the morrigi would do. Have an LV with lets say, 15 battleriders on it. No ftl drives right? Thats 3 more drones for each battle rider. Whats 5 times 15? 75? You've got 1 LV, 15 battle riders, and 75 high end drones coming at you. Just speculation, but when you've got a carrier in space, you've also got a fully operational battleship.

Think of a Star Destroyer from Star Wars. They're around a mile long or so. Is it a carrier, or a battleship? Whichever the commander wants it to be.
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Mecron
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Mecron » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:03 pm

yes cause in magic star wars land, fighters do not require vast volumes for support and supply, nor do guns other than planet killing size seem to require a lot of structural or power support.

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by KradenX » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:08 am

I'm glad that all you could say back to my post was an insult Mecron.

I was not insulting anyone.
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Erinys
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Erinys » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:34 am

Nor were you being insulted, KradenX. Mecron is pointing out that there are profound differences between Star Wars and SotS as science fiction. Star Wars, despite the title, is not really intended to simulate or abstract the military engagements of ANY era, past present or future. It is a powerful backdrop for larger-than-life adventure stories about the confrontation between absolute good and evil.

SotS is a backdrop for war. Issues which are irrelevant or distracting in the Star Wars universe become important.

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by KradenX » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:49 am

I admit the comparison was ill-chosen, yet he did not have to respond with such contempt.

I am not an idiot, and do not wish to be treated as one.

It seems to me that if anyone makes a point that is disagreeable to Mecron then he must immediately make them feel as stupid as he possibly can.

I am trying to contribute to the forum based upon a game which I greatly enjoy, including the story thereof.

I understand my comment was a little heated, but I was not insulting anyone.

I just don't understand how today we have sea faring vessels that have hangers, guns, and carry more cargo than super advanced spaceships. And yes, these sea faring ships today CAN operate WITHOUT support for up to 5 years, if not more, with FULL crew implements.

Enlighten me, and I will comply entirely.

Don't just swat down my comments without giving me some foundation of why.

And if your why is "BECAUSE I MADE THE GAME THIS WAY AND THAT's HOW I WANT IT TO BE!" then that's FINE, just tell me so I don't expect this game do be flowing under some false sense of realism.
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by patton1942 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:08 am

I don't know Kraiden. I read your post (not response to mec) as being a bit hot tempered. In my head, you were angry and not yelling, but lecturing. I'm not trying to tell you what you were feeling, just what I interpreted as your emotional state at the time of the post. Its always difficult to convey emotions over textual conversations, especially with various native language barriers.

And just as an aside, a SoTS LV is closer to a half a mile long. 1600m = 1 mile (roughly). Star Destroyers are generally reported as 1.6 KM long.

And fighters are their for actiony shots, not as a serious threat to capital ships. In SoTS drones are a serious threat to ships. Maybe not so much to dreadnoughts late game, but they do a good job of mopping up. They carry capital ship guns (or gun), not pew pews for dealing with other small fighters.
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Erinys » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:16 am

KradenX wrote:I admit the comparison was ill-chosen, yet he did not have to respond with such contempt.


His comment did not include any contempt, nor did it include any insult. It was simply brief and made the point clearly: this game is not set in the Star Wars universe and there are a number of crucial differences. If you define Star Wars as realistic, we are defining the word realism somewhat differently.

As for your feelings...? I am not sure why you are feeling stupid or insulted because Mecron regards the depiction of war in Star Wars as magical rather than military-industrial. However, if you think that even a modern nuclear aircraft carrier can go without support for five months, much less five years, you need to educate yourself a bit more about military logistics and the Loss of Strength Gradient.

Carrier groups at the outside best use a method called underway replenishment if they cannot return to port for extended periods. They need supply, and there is a significant amount of effort devoted to providing for their needs. In space the logistical needs of a fleet will be even more sharply defined if ANY attempt is made to model these issues "realistically".

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by KradenX » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:43 am

My posts always seem to be lectural to everyone, and I do not intend for them to be. I apologize.

In any case, my ex was onboard the USS Eisenhower all the way to Bahrain and back. The underway replenishment is for resupplying stores that are perishable and providing fuel and munitions for most of the aircraft.

The carrier itself can run without support for about 5 years, with full crew implements. Yes, they will have to ration, and no, they can't fly 12 missions a day, but it can be done.

And if you really want to argue with me about star wars, then we can start another thread somewhere else.

All I am saying is he could have responded to the other data in my post, and then said, "But the star wars thing is a bad comparison because of this and this and this, and please tone down your assinism because you sound like a grad student trying to lecture."

Anyways its pointless; even though I have had the game since 2006 and been a member (on a different account that I lost) since then my opinion is not worth anything.
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Erinys » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:52 am

KradenX wrote:In any case, my ex was onboard the USS Eisenhower all the way to Bahrain and back. The underway replenishment is for resupplying stores that are perishable and providing fuel and munitions for most of the aircraft.


This is what Mecron was referring to when he said that the supply necessary for fighters is not magic in SotS. It was not a personal remark at all. He's just aware of the real-life difficulties that Star Wars chooses to ignore, because they are not relevant to the stories told in that universe.

And if you really want to argue with me about star wars, then we can start another thread somewhere else.


No particular need for that. There is a lot of love for Star Wars around here, and I'm certainly not interested in having anyone bash Star Wars in my little mini-forum.

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by TrashMan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:02 am

KradenX wrote:I just don't understand how today we have sea faring vessels that have hangers, guns, and carry more cargo than super advanced spaceships. And yes, these sea faring ships today CAN operate WITHOUT support for up to 5 years, if not more, with FULL crew implements.

Enlighten me, and I will comply entirely.


Carrier crew complement: around 6000
Battleship crew complement: around 1500

Carrier armament: a few defense guns and missiles.
Battleship armament: Big guns, big missiles, hoards of small guns.

All things require space. Ammunition. Crew. Food.
Those space plains need spare parts. They have to be stored. They need to be repaired. You need room to comfortably repair them. You need fuel for them. You need people who will mantain, supervise, organize and pilot it all. In shifts. Those people need beds, food and entertainment. Mass. Fuel. Thrust. Power. Range.

EVERYTHING comes at a cost. If you want more armor you'll need to sacrifice something else. (either speed or operational range, since you'll have more mass, hence will need more fuel or bigger engines to mantain the same speed)
More speed? More guns? Whatever you choose, you can't have it all.

How exactly you concluded that battleship and carrier are equal in requirements is beyond me.
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Allattar » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:29 am

Exactly Trash.

First off the environment in space could be more appropriately compared to a submarine.
Aside from that you need space to put your drones/fighters in or on your vessel. You need fuel for them, and resupplies. All take up space. All of which takes up space that could be used for more guns.

Mass is a big issue as well, as overall mass will affect how the spaceship accelerates and manouevers.
I am fairly sure though the decision to build LV's as carriers, or battleships with minimal drones and battle riders will be something we can choose.

I am also fairly confident that LV's concentrating on moar guns over battleriders and drones will have a purpose as well. Longer range/bigger weapons come to mind.
I am also fairly confident that LV's or dreadnoughts will have armaments meant to deal with Drones and battleriders.

As for love for Star wars, are we making a clear distinction between the original and the new ones here... :thumbsup:
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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Mecron » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:00 pm

Kraden, seriously. Unknot the panties...I am a busy guy and my posts tend to be as short and to the point as possible. If you REALLY strain, you can make some sort of point about me being mean to star wars...but to make it personal is way over the top. And really, was not thinking anything involving the word "assinine". You brought up a comparison for ship design and I pointed out the way SW ships are built. Thats pretty much it. Granted your outrage has garnered a much longer repsonse than I usually have time for but it doesn't get you any kind of apology as none is required...merely a bit of perspective. Not here to hold anyone's hand, just here to respond to points made and more important READ ALL points made...if you need something more than that in order NOT to go on a angry personal attack on me...this may not be a very calming place for you.

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by Incomptinence » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:39 am

Sure you can have a non dedicated carrier chassis, for example the Morrigi command sections above destroyer scale have a light complement and the zuul command ships do the same for boarding pods. I personally wish there was a variant chassis with less dedication purely for variety purposes but the presence of gunnery on the command and engine sections compensate. Actually in that view dread carriers are much less dedicated than modern naval carriers because only the central mission section is dedicated to drones, with a drone dedicated command section we might have gotten better coverage.

I must object to the comparisons some people have made between space ships and submarines in the case of space carriers. While this may be true for inhabited sections of the ship storing a space-worthy robotic craft in a regulated atmosphere is silly. There is nothing stopping a ship having a large internal airless compartment and as robotic fighter craft drones would likely be less personnel intensive than modern fighters due the robotic automation inherent in their tech tree and the existence of waldo units, oh and no actual pilots. I guess we have the col designs for slightly more practical carrier design though.

I don't know how carrier leviathans will work but eh I guess more customization could mean more control over the designs.

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Re: So, Leviathans...

Post by lwarmonger » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:36 pm

While I would say that pilotless drones do have potential for duel purpose carrier/battleships, my question would be why? Carriers have radically different mission sets that battleships, and by combining the two roles you would be getting a ship that was more expensive and difficult to build than vessels filling either role, and not particularly good at either job.

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