The Humans

All things Human, Hiver, Tarka, Liir, Zuul and Morrigi.

Moderator: Erinys

Post Reply
User avatar
Adamfostas
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:38 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Adamfostas » Thu May 20, 2010 10:04 am

Erinys wrote:Just to return things to topic: the popularity of Hanzi as a unifying language is based in part on the formation of a political entity called the Han Consortium in the 23rd century.

As one of the new collective states of the pre-Node era, the Han Consortium was by far the most heavily populated polity of the planet. It was multi-lingual and multi-cultural to an enormous degree, comprising most of eastern Asia and the still-viable portions of the Indian subcontinent, as well as a huge population of people whose homes and livelihoods were literally built on the water in the Indian Ocean, China Sea, and over the Drowned Lands of eastern and southeast Asia.

Hanzi was a useful administrative tool and was imposed by the politically and militarily powerful core in the Asian highlands. It allowed the officials of many population groups to communicate clearly and effectively via electronic channels. It was also taught in schools, promoted as an official literary and cultural heritage language for the state, and adopted by the general population for their own use in trade and entertainment--i.e., audiences in the floating cities of Japan would enjoy watching films shot in Hindi or Bengali or Tibetan with Hanzi subtitles, and vice versa.

The Han Consortium was one of the hardest hit during the First Contact bombardment of Earth. Major population centers were destroyed and millions were killed--millions more were rendered homeless and without resources. The remaining Consortia governments had to pull together for an enormous rescue and relief effort, and in the process millions of people were relocated to the Europa, Australarctic and Americas Consortia. Since Hanzi had already been taught as a second language for many decades in the majority of primary and secondary schools of these other Consortia, the displaced population were able to use their Hanzi skills to get along in ways that their native languages would not have served them. They could read and fill out forms, apply for services and receive aid using Hanzi, even in areas very far from their former homes.

Those who have read The Deacon's Tale will remember that the protagonist, Cai Rui, was orphaned in the aftermath of First Contact; his mother died in a refugee camp, after contracting pneumonia in the second winter after the attack. Our hero was originally from the Han Consortium, but was adopted by the Catholic Church and received most of his primary and secondary education in Europa, which is why he often thinks and programs his PDA in Latin. If he had been adopted by a branch living in the Americas Consortium, he would think, speak and write primarily in Spanish and English; if he had been been adopted by the African Consortium, he would speak and write Swahili and Arabic very fluently. If he had been taken to the Australarctic Consortium, his primary languages would be English and Malay. If he had remained Han, he would have learned to read, write, perform simple arithmetic and fill out all government forms in Hanzi, while speaking Mandarin at home with his mother and English when dealing with foreigners.

Hope this helps to clear things up somewhat. I sometimes think that people lose sight of the enormous political turmoil and reorganization which had taken place on Earth long before the Hivers showed up to kick over our sand castle. :wink:

--Arinn

The impression I get here is that the spread of Hanzi is analogous to the spread of English under the British Empire, although obviously to a lesser geographical extent. Would this be a fair analogy?

User avatar
Erinys
Kerberos Goddess of Lore
Posts: 7448
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:58 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Erinys » Thu May 20, 2010 9:42 pm

Adamfostas wrote:The impression I get here is that the spread of Hanzi is analogous to the spread of English under the British Empire, although obviously to a lesser geographical extent. Would this be a fair analogy?


In a sense. The sheer number of square kilometers covered by Hanzi even in the Han Consortium was pretty large, and once the Han diaspora took place after the Hiver attack, the use of Hanzi to integrate the refugees was global. But in general, I think the process was similar in political terms.

--Arinn
Support my independent fiction campaign on Patreon.
_______________________________________________
Official website
Twitter
Sword of the Stars Gallery on Facebook
“Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.” --Hemingway

TriNova
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:52 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by TriNova » Sun May 30, 2010 4:22 am

The consortiums sound like the massive nation-states of 1984. except they get along and there isn't permanent war and no Ministry of Love. And the government actually tells the truth to its people.

Stratigo
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:50 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Stratigo » Sun May 30, 2010 8:40 am

TriNova wrote:The consortiums sound like the massive nation-states of 1984. except they get along and there isn't permanent war and no Ministry of Love. And the government actually tells the truth to its people.


XD. Well war seems fairly commen in SotSverse, who knows about a ministry of love, and no government tells the truth.

User avatar
sorain
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:13 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by sorain » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:56 am

I am curious to hear about the governmental changes by the time of SotS ][ (or at least the status at the final event of SOTS 1's segment of the time line.)
We have been informed that Sol Force was becoming the de facto government of humanity at the start of the era, But how has it settled into power? How has rank shaken out?

I apologise if this has been thrown out in bits and peaces, but 66 pages of posts is a little beyond my spare time, and I am quite curious. A collected version (likely to be added to the wiki page after posting) would be quite plesant and appreciated...

Please Sir, may I have some more?
The brain gets its power from performing many parallel operations, a computer from performing operations very quickly.

Nathan
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:12 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Nathan » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:04 pm

Solforce went from being a small underfunded Consortia project, space will one day be important for us but we have eighteen billion people to feed right now, to the Imperial power we know thanks to the discovery of the node drive, the Hiver attack, and its aftermath.

While the Consortia still exist, and still rule earth, if they want space fleets to keep Earth safe they have to talk to the Director, and they have no sovereignty over the SolForce administrated colonies, or the even more numerous independant colonies formed by people trying their damndest to get away from both the Consortia and SolForce. That said SolForce doesn't micromanage its planets. The Consortia likely has a calories per pop point slider, we don't get that for some reason :P.

other then that, you'll have to be more specific about your questions. and you should read the thread if you haven't already, just skip all the stuff about people arguing about how the background should have turned out, or what might have happened. Theres backstory in them there pages.

Mightypeon
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Mightypeon » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:18 pm

Erinys wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character

Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese. Most of the eastern Asian continent is now under the dominion of the Han Consortium, which uses Hanzi as the documentary language for official business.

--Arinn



I feel deeply uncomfortable by having an amalgan out of completely different languages.
The Han written language may work (there is a historical precedent for a written Han or Han like language beeing used in Korea, Japan and Vietnam),
however:

-Getting Korean honorifics and a korean grammer right with Hanzi is likely a nightmare, what kinda worked before the Koreans decided to create their own national alphabet may not work so well know.
-On the other hand, creating a Pinjen version in order to write Chinese with Korean letters would not work particularly well either, although the Korean alphabet is perhaps the most logical one currently on the planet (Which imho is totally untrue for Korean grammar, well, perhaps as a Kraut I shouldnt boast about logical grammatical constructs :oops: )
-Vietnamese is at least a similiar type of language (pronouncation totally changes the meaning of a word in both Vietnamese and Han, not in Korean) I dont speak it at all though, thus I am less knowledged about it, however, it is supposed to be a Austroasiatic language, making it highly different from Chinese etmyologically.


If I would have to fathom a guess:
-Written 23rd century Hanzi would (hopefully ;D ) consist of a largely Korean alphabet, with intonation symbols and occasional chinese characters if the pinjen would be exact. Compared to the Japanese situation with Hiragana/Katagana, I am midly condifedent that the Korean version of a sinic language may neccessiate less of those exceptions.

Historically, one can even make a claim for Hanzi beeing arbitrarily difficult, after all, literacy was used as a social barrier, and this barrier could be made much stronger by having a written language that is hard to learn.

This is not intended as a critisicm of any kind, but the enourmous differences between Han and Korean strongly suprised me, especially given such a long shared history/time of vasallage, imho they are farther away than German and Russian, perhaps something like Spanish and Lithuanian.
There is a very informative (and short!!!) Nature paper on distances within the Indo-European tree,
http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/publ ... 2003Nature

I am currently trying to find corresponding information on non Indo-European languages.¨

Although, after looking at the matter a bit more, a big reason why Hanzi would be Hanzi:

-Up to 70% of Vietnamese Words have a somehow Chinese origin
-60% for Korean
For Japanese its harder to tell....

Well, perhaps my first post pre edits was a knee jerk reaction based on my "Westerners strongly underestimate differences between East Asian languages" pet peeve.
Last edited by Mightypeon on Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mecron
Kerberos
Posts: 38139
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:26 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Mecron » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:34 pm

Perhaps it was intended as going completly overboard in reference to one throw away line that said NOTHING about equal parts of these languages or even what parts in what context were being used from each. :wink:

Mightypeon
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 7:51 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Mightypeon » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:59 pm

Well, good Sir developer, we all have our pet peeves right?

I just find language distances to be incredibly interesting...

On slightly more on-topical post, especially the Morrigi and the Tarka seem to have (Morrigi pre fall colonies, Tarka silver empire remains) long time scales under which independent colonies could come up with their own languages. I would guess that the speed of language divergence is largely based on social conservativeness and the average life span, with isolation also beeing a strong factor.

If you would have to hazard a guess, which of these races, given a colony with 2000 years of isolation, would have the most different language?

Morrigi?
Hiver?
Humans?
Tarka?

(Zuul and Fish are out for obvious reasons)

I would guess that Humans woudl differentiate in the most rapid way (relativly short life times), followed by Tarkas (I would guess that remembering the old Empire is an important social construct, and this will propably lead to remembering its language as well), with Morrigies (well, can a Morrigi colony be that isolated in the first place?) and Hivers (I guess that long lived queens arent to fond of their subject speaking in newspeak gibberish) beeing quite a bit more conservative...

P.S.

Do not attribute to intent what can be explained by stupidity :wink:

User avatar
Erinys
Kerberos Goddess of Lore
Posts: 7448
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:58 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Erinys » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:22 am

Mightypeon wrote:I feel deeply uncomfortable by having an amalgan out of completely different languages.


If you've gotten the impression that the Hanzi of the SotSverse is "an amalgam of different languages" then you have not been reading carefully. The standardized written language was imposed upon the population of the Han Consortium in the 23rd century. It was not created by committee with all parties equally contributing, nor was it designed to accommodate all members of the Consortium equally and fairly. It was a case of linguistic imperialism--and in fairness, it was not at all the first occasion of linguistic imperialism which involved the Chinese language in human history. ;)

If you would have to hazard a guess, which of these races, given a colony with 2000 years of isolation, would have the most different language?

Morrigi?
Hiver?
Humans?
Tarka?

(Zuul and Fish are out for obvious reasons)

I would guess that Humans woudl differentiate in the most rapid way (relativly short life times), followed by Tarkas (I would guess that remembering the old Empire is an important social construct, and this will propably lead to remembering its language as well), with Morrigies (well, can a Morrigi colony be that isolated in the first place?) and Hivers (I guess that long lived queens arent to fond of their subject speaking in newspeak gibberish) beeing quite a bit more conservative...


Given 2000 years of complete isolation? Linguistic drift would likely fall out in the following pattern:

Humans
Hivers
Morrigi
Tarka

In general, individual lifespan is the most important characteristic, but there is also a second factor to take into account: some races are more receptive to change than others. Social change of any kind is incredibly slow among the Tarka, and they have a variety of cultural constructs designed to maintain stasis in certain areas.

--Arinn
Support my independent fiction campaign on Patreon.
_______________________________________________
Official website
Twitter
Sword of the Stars Gallery on Facebook
“Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.” --Hemingway

Keisari
.
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Keisari » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:52 am

Talking about races and changes in their language, I suppose that in normal, connected colonies distance isn't a factor in Hiver dialects, and more so in Human dialects?

User avatar
TrashMan
Posts: 6178
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by TrashMan » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:20 pm

Question - at the start of SOTS2, what is the status of the human "empire"? How big, advanced, popular are they?
Image
halo07guy wrote: Praise be to Trashman! All will revel in his holy modding skillz!
And I say onto you: Blessed are those who play my mods - for they are good!

User avatar
Naja
Doomsayer
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:06 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Naja » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:00 am

Some SolForce brass questions:

What means did Ashilda Falke use to grow SolForce from being a laughable minor agency into a dictatorial military-industrial complex? And how did she alienate her senior Legators to the point of inspiring a military coup?

The current Director is described as a military mastermind, a ruthless and astute politician, and a savvy administrator. He epitomizes the idea of the self-made man, having risen from the SolForce infantry into his current position of uncontested power. How exactly did he accomplish his rise to power? Was he involved in the coup against Falke? What else led to his trajectory, besides sheer badassitude and luck?

Thrandir
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:06 am

Re: The Humans

Post by Thrandir » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:24 am

Thanks for the interesting read and background information :)

User avatar
Naja
Doomsayer
Posts: 1551
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:06 pm

Re: The Humans

Post by Naja » Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:11 am

Another Sol Force-related question:

What Chinese and British naval traditions does Sol Force retain? (As described in the wiki)

Post Reply

Return to “The Races”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests