The Hivers

All things Human, Hiver, Tarka, Liir, Zuul and Morrigi.

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ZedF
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Re: The Hivers

Post by ZedF » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:05 pm

kettra wrote:Try doing it manually.
After 2-3 turns of bobbing around doing mostly nothing but flying in circles, they suddenly and out of the blue go completely ax-crazy and attack for no explicable reason whatsoever.

Every race does this. There's nothing special here to indicate the Liir are insane for doing so. In fact the Liir are the least likely to attack in such cases, and will maintain a cease fire longer than any other race. But eventually the game decides that it shouldn't make you fight the same boring scout battle over and over so it has the enemy scout suicide attack yours. Someone is bound to get an itchy trigger finger eventually if your races haven't established a cease fire or NAP. So grab some basic xenotech so you can do that.

Doesn't matter if you don't fight back, doesn't matter if you run away, or if you quite rightfully turn the hateful little geek into expanding plasma, no matter WHAT YOU DO, they'll scream Suulka and come baying for your blood, every single time.

If your only interaction with them is to destroy their scouts, then yes. What else are they supposed to do if you remain all enigmatic and give no indication that you are willing to be friendly? Try researching xenotech to be able to talk with them and establish a treaty or two. Giving gifts can also help -- a small regular token offering will often ease small tensions like scout battles while borders are still being established. Again, this applies to every civilized race, so the Liir aren't exactly unique here, except that they are more likely to respond positively to early peace attempts than other races are. The main difference is that you can't put it off until later as you might with other races, but have to make the effort asap; once you get on the Liir's bad side you tend to stay there.

Definitely research xenotech before they decide to go scouting with bioweapon destroyers. Surely you can manage that; after all xenotech is far cheaper than bioweapon tech! :lol:

As for the rest of your post... well I dunno about the fish being insane, but yours definitely rang of paranoia. ;)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Goomich
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Re: The Hivers

Post by Goomich » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:07 pm

ZedF wrote:In fact the Liir are the least likely to attack in such cases, and will maintain a cease fire longer than any other race.


No, in my every game, my closest neigbour always declares war against me.
And I'm always surprised and shocked.

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kettra
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Re: The Hivers

Post by kettra » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:01 pm

I tried researching Xenotech, bribing them, begging them, even just LETTING them destroy ships, it's always the same with them.

"Hail fellow traveler, would you like to be Fre.."*AAAIEEE SUULKA, KILLKILLKILLLL!* :googly:

The extremely and extraordinarily rare times that doesn't happen, usually cause they're nice and far, far away, then it becomes just random out-of-the-blue they blow up and go berserk on you without any apparent cause whatever.
once you get on the Liir's bad side you tend to stay there.

Oh ain't THAT the freakin truth, problem is just how unbelievably random they are about it, almost like they just wake up one day and "welp, lets commit xenocide on them, okay ?", and that's that, rendering all your efforts for naught.

So why waste resources on an obviously lost cause ?
I mean, after a hundred plus games I quit even bothering to research the tech to even talk to them cause for me there's just nothing to SAY.

There's at least some logic to the rest, leave the Humans be and they kind of avoid you unless you're in the middle of one of their lanes, and after a few pokes to see what you're made of the Tarka and the Zuul mostly back off, and the Morrigi seem to want your money and goods more than your head on a spike, so it's all good - and if you get up their back they let you know it, give you some kind of chance to make amends, instead of doing stuff like randomly declaring a crusade on you out of the blue, sometimes even one turn after making agreements with you.

Kind of leaves me nostalgic for Master of Orion II's Stellar Converter, it does. :love:
Randomly declare war on ME for no reason, willya ?
Apparently the best we get here is Siege Drivers, but those are fun too, especially when you get them lined up juuust right and play a little enemy fleet tiddlywinks.
And Impactors, and Mass Drivers... kinetic weapons are so much fun, cause no matter how primitive or advanced you are, there's always gonna be a place for clobbering folk with a big chunk of rock.

-K

ZedF
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Re: The Hivers

Post by ZedF » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:17 pm

kettra wrote:So why waste resources on an obviously lost cause ?
I mean, after a hundred plus games I quit even bothering to research the tech to even talk to them cause for me there's just nothing to SAY.

I think you are simply the victim of your own self-fulfilling prophecy here. To be honest I sometimes have similar trouble regarding the Tarka. However, I have never had any problem making friends with the Liir when I have a mind to, so long as I am diligent about ensuring first contact is as friendly as possible. To wit: my latest example of a game where first contact with the Liir went very smoothly indeed. I also shared some further thoughts as my game progressed on how the different AI races tend to react diplomatically in different situations, which might be worth a read.

Note I'm just one of the players reporting on that thread so you'll have to scan through a bit until you find the start of my report and continuations thereof.

Some other things that can help maintain friendly relations -- send them info about your planets so they know where NOT to send their scouts. And keep your own scouts refuelled so they can move away from neutral worlds the Liir want to scout or colonize. Obviously this won't help much with gates, but cease fire should help there. You can also just scuttle ships in cases where they can't move to avoid a confrontation -- this will tend to be better for relations than fighting and letting the other guy win. Finally, and most importantly, make first contact as early as possible while there is still expansion room available to be shared. If first contact involves you settling new colonies on their doorstep when they are struggling to find new colony prospects, things aren't likely to end well.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

kettra
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Re: The Hivers

Post by kettra » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:09 am

I think you are simply the victim of your own self-fulfilling prophecy here.

Oh I don't think "victim" is the right word here, given what HAPPENS to them flailing flounder lunatics once I get dug in and crank up the fleet production in classic Hiver fashion...

And yeah the Tarka tend to be pretty belligerent, but since they tend heavily towards missles and the Hive usually gets some pretty good point defense, handing out a curb stomp or two early on tends to encourage them to focus their attentions elsewhere, hopefully on the Zuul, cause they really are pain in the nethers what with being able to match you for production and swarm you.

Since they're insanely aggressive anyway (they kind of have to be) the best bet with them is bottling them up early and turtling the nearest worlds till they exhaust themselves, then pick up the pieces at a convenient time later and mine out what's left of their ruined worlds.

The Morrigi don't seem to be aggresive most times, and those few they are usually they choose someone else to pick on, but there was that one... hated me right off, not helped by our worlds starting out way to close and them getting all aggressively territorial, and smart too - after a couple encounters with Hiver point defense they gave up on drones and started spamming those horrible beamer cruisers at me, and that was a tricky bit of business till I got impactors researched and deployed, at which point they got sorted out nicely...
Especially when I ran in a suicide fleet to strip their defenses, which it did, two turns before a massive Zuul strikeforce hit them - ahhh, the thought of their well deserved fate soon after just gives me sparkly warm fuzzies, it does.

<--Not very nice.

I laughed pretty hard at page 8 though, that's MY experience with the Liir right there, everybody hating their guts - often as not my efforts to wipe them out earn me far more friends than trying to play nice with them, about the only time I ever got far with the latter was another of those memorable moments.

Liir: "Would you like to join our alliance ?"
ONE TURN LATER
Liir: "*AAAIEEE SUULKA, KILLKILLKILLLL!* :googly:
*facepalm*

And that was the moment my policy toward them shifted to "Do unto them first, faster, harder and with more firepower" - which seems to earn me an enormous amount of political brownie points from everyone else, a very useful bonus... I guess pulling that stunt on other races doesn't make them too happy neither.

I do think part of it is that by necessity Hiver have to be R-strategist in nature due to the lack of FTL drives, which tends to put them in early conflict for worlds/resources, and the Liirs tendency to hold a grudge to the point of ridiculous (as if I have room to talk, here..) make a Liir-Hiver friendship all but impossible.

Funny thing about Humans though, in my experience they tend to leave well alone even despite their previous history, and most games wind up with us in detente and stagnated cause neither one of us really wants to obliterate the other, at which point I just call it.

-K

ZedF
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The Hivers

Post by ZedF » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:56 pm

Typically, every race is at war with most of the other races, so it doesn't matter who you beat up, you'll get brownie points from their enemies. Liir are no exception in this regard.

Regardless, I think I have figured out why the Liir hate you in particular. They're psychic, you see. Deep down, you hate them with the unreasoning fury of a thousand suns, and under no circumstances will you give up that hatred for them. Even when you make a conscious effort to be friendly it is soiled by an undercurrent of suspicion and malice. So when they meet you, naturally they call you by your name. ;)
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

kettra
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Re: The Hivers

Post by kettra » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:49 pm

Regardless, I think I have figured out why the Liir hate you in particular. They're psychic, you see. Deep down, you hate them with the unreasoning fury of a thousand suns, and under no circumstances will you give up that hatred for them. Even when you make a conscious effort to be friendly it is soiled by an undercurrent of suspicion and malice. So when they meet you, naturally they call you by your name.

:laughing:
Point taken - and thanks for the giggles that inspired.

Worth a note here is that for whatever reason the Liir don't really go into armor that deep in my experience, although if things go on too long they may come up with shields...
Anyhows, while their cruisers are pretty scary at first, since within a planetary gravity well the speed difference between Liir and Hive isn't so much, and Hiver cruisers with armor piercing mass drivers tend to make mincemeat of them, so you might keep a couple handy yourself in case negotiations break down - not to mention impactors turn them into catfood pretty quick.

-K

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