The Liir

All things Human, Hiver, Tarka, Liir, Zuul and Morrigi.

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Erinys
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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:21 am

Shogeton wrote:Oh, I read that one, it's actually the thing that got my whole line of questions started. Since the narrator there doesn't SAY why he's doing this, whether it is out of something shameful, something terrifying or even something selfish. And well, from one question comes another, mostly because, as said, my first questions showed that I didn't understand the Liir enough to 'get' the right ones.

Though, if from that whole list of questions I threw, there's one that's most on my mind. For a Liir looking at a Liir, is being a Suul'ka an actual, objective, measurable trait, rather than a moral judgement?


I will simply place in red ink the words which have no meaning to a Liir.

"Looking at" is monkey-think. It is how you express your necessarily limited and superficial perception of other sentient beings. To you, your fellow beings are flat two-dimensional images. They show you a surface prepared for your perusal and you believe what you see. When you pay attention to something, you are "looking at" it. But from a Liir viewpoint, you perceive almost nothing of interest or pertinence.

A Liir's perception is very different than yours. To a Liir, the blood clot inching toward a choke point in your brain to cause you a fatal stroke at 55 is far more visible than the color of your eyes. To a Liir, your memory of your parents and the way they shaped your being is far easier to perceive and parse than any of the noises you make with your mouth when you tell someone your name, or try to explain who you are.

To a Liir, your sensitivity to other living things is every bit as actual, as measurable, and as objectively real as the length of your femur or the way your proteins are linked together. "Moral judgment" is a phrase that would be virtually impossible to translate into any terms they would understand. "Judgment" is a decision that one comes to after deliberation, an opinion one develops upon reflection, or an assertion of something believed. Once you have performed these acts, you share your view with others by "pronouncing".

None of these steps exist for a Liir, in matters of morality.

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Ranamar
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Re: The Liir

Post by Ranamar » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:41 am

I get the impression that, in ... experiencing ... another being, for a Liir, a being's sensitivity to other living things is as evident to them as, for example, colors are to a human.

Continuing that metaphor, if we can describe being Suul'ka as, say, blue, do Liir ever disagree about the difference between, for example, teal and turquoise, and whether one is blue and the other is green?

Also, your post is a bit contradictory, IMO, on whether or not being Suul'ka is or is not objective and measurable for them. First, you said they do not understand the concept of objectivity, and then you proceeded to say that they can observe a being's nature with the implication that all Liir will agree on the assessment, which strikes me as being "objective". (Of course, you or they might buy into the philosophy that reality is a shared fiction that we agree upon, but, in that case, well, I'm not sure what to say.)

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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:00 am

Ranamar wrote:Continuing that metaphor, if we can describe being Suul'ka as, say, blue, do Liir ever disagree about the difference between, for example, teal and turquoise, and whether one is blue and the other is green?


The difference between Suul'ka and not-Suul'ka is not the difference between blue and green. If you must pursue human metaphors, it is black and white.

Also, your post is a bit contradictory, IMO, on whether or not being Suul'ka is or is not objective and measurable for them.


*sighs and shakes her head* You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree.

First, you said they do not understand the concept of objectivity, and then you proceeded to say that they can observe a being's nature with the implication that all Liir will agree on the assessment, which strikes me as being "objective". (Of course, you or they might buy into the philosophy that reality is a shared fiction that we agree upon, but, in that case, well, I'm not sure what to say.)


"Objectivity" is a human word which has no meaning. But empathy IS an "actual, measurable, OBJECTIVE trait" (that is, a trait which an object can have, which is non-arbitrary and not a matter of opinion), to a Liir.

I realize some of you are very, very, VERY stubbornly married to your notion that good and evil are subjective and completely a matter of opinion. That is a human viewpoint; Liir do not share it. To a Liir, evil is something that EVERYONE can perceive. It is no more a matter of debate than the wavelength of light or the temperature of the water.

Evil shines. And it is cold. Like ice.

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Ranamar
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Re: The Liir

Post by Ranamar » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:23 am

Erinys wrote:
Ranamar wrote:Continuing that metaphor, if we can describe being Suul'ka as, say, blue, do Liir ever disagree about the difference between, for example, teal and turquoise, and whether one is blue and the other is green?


The difference between Suul'ka and not-Suul'ka is not the difference between blue and green. If you must pursue human metaphors, it is black and white.


Clear enough. Thank you.

Also, your post is a bit contradictory, IMO, on whether or not being Suul'ka is or is not objective and measurable for them.


*sighs and shakes her head* You're welcome to your opinion. I disagree.

First, you said they do not understand the concept of objectivity, and then you proceeded to say that they can observe a being's nature with the implication that all Liir will agree on the assessment, which strikes me as being "objective". (Of course, you or they might buy into the philosophy that reality is a shared fiction that we agree upon, but, in that case, well, I'm not sure what to say.)


"Objectivity" is a human word which has no meaning. But empathy IS an "actual, measurable, OBJECTIVE trait" (that is, a trait which an object can have, which is non-arbitrary and not a matter of opinion), to a Liir.


Last I checked, objective observations are those which deal with the nature of objects, and objectivity is the process of making objective observations. Where is the disconnect here?

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Re: The Liir

Post by NinjaTofu » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:43 am

Many interesting insights into the Liir here recently. Seems the Liir perceive things very differently from Humans. I like the idea of an entire telepathically linked species that see the universe in terms of thought, memories, mood/feeling. From what I'm reading, I guess the Liir aren't "objective" the way Humans are i.e. That's a square box. Instead they see emotion, thoughts, the nature of a living being as naturally as Humans see colors, shapes, etc. So for them Suul'ka is obvious and not a matter of judgement/interpretation, because they perceive another being simply as Suul'ka or not.

For such a communal species, the decision to become a Black Swimmer must be difficult. Is it really a decision for them? Or does winning the game and finding the Elders' hidden memories change them and their perception so they need to leave and close themselves off from their loved ones? Trying to find the right words to say what I mean... I guess does gaining the hidden knowledge act like a "Garden of Eden" scenario? After gaining that knowledge, their world is no longer the place for them, because their thoughts/emotions/nature have changed. Their presence and thoughts might even "taint" the others so they have to close themselves off, leaving only the Black Sea open to them?
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Erinys
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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:51 am

The disconnect is that you are taking a simple concept and then loading it with useless Human philosophical freight when you shift from "objective trait" (a feature an object can have) to the word "objectivity" (which is an extremely Human philosophical concept).

Empathy can be an objective trait to a species that can perceive empathy directly, the way you perceive heat and cold.

By contrast, the vast majority of Humans use the word "objectivity" in the following two ways:

1. a position not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

2. intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings.

To a Liir, there is nothing that is external to their own minds--including other minds. Ergo there is no corresponding vocabulary for a Liir. Distinguishing between things internal and external to the mind, when you're both telepathic and telekinetic, is absurd. There are some tunes you only whistle when you're alone in the dark.

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Re: The Liir

Post by Ranamar » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:41 am

Erinys wrote:The disconnect is that you are taking a simple concept and then loading it with useless Human philosophical freight when you shift from "objective trait" (a feature an object can have) to the word "objectivity" (which is an extremely Human philosophical concept).

Empathy can be an objective trait to a species that can perceive empathy directly, the way you perceive heat and cold.

By contrast, the vast majority of Humans use the word "objectivity" in the following two ways:

1. a position not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.

2. intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings.

To a Liir, there is nothing that is external to their own minds--including other minds. Ergo there is no corresponding vocabulary for a Liir. Distinguishing between things internal and external to the mind, when you're both telepathic and telekinetic, is absurd. There are some tunes you only whistle when you're alone in the dark.

--Arinn


I am thinking of it in the scientific sense of testability and reproducibility.

Going off on a tangent, evidently, for the Liir, everything is experienced through one extremely fascinating sensory organ, but you have suggested it has enough precision that the ability to compare notes on this sort of thing is completely within their power. Human minds, on the other hand, have much squishier senses. I imagine the Liir know the exact dimensions of everything around them, as well, whereas a human can't get much past "well, it's about as wide as my finger" in precision without outside tools. Am I correct in that supposition?

It is possible, as a result, that we have been talking past each other because you are thinking of the philosophical term while I am thinking something that it just happens humans can not achieve without tools.

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Re: The Liir

Post by Zalzidrax » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:14 am

A couple thoughts...

First, I don't think Liir would even really have a concept of "perspective" apart from a mathematical abstraction. Human vision is a two dimensional picture of a three dimensional world. If you view a thing from different angles, you see different things. Two people looking at the same scene from different locations will see it very differently because there's a different arrangement of photons headed toward their eyes. Liir primarily sense things in three dimensions, and so would not experience this. They'd have no visceral experience that really corresponds to two people seeing the same thing two different ways and both being more or less right.

Second, for all practical purposes, human "objectivity" consists of believing the things that most reliable people do. Sure the guy tripping acid and ranting about machine elves *might* be on to some more real and objective reality, but almost nobody takes that seriously except maybe as a philosophical thought experiment. Since Liir experience each others' observations and thoughts directly, and that's one of the primary ways they experience reality, it doesn't seem like there's an option to avoid believing other Liir's reliable experiences without it being to akin to a human being deciding reality itself doesn't exist.

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Re: The Liir

Post by Shogeton » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:23 am

All right, I get that. Liir sense empathy, and to them, empathy is the straight up measuring of evil. My questin then is, if 100 is ultra-Gandhi, and 0 is mega-Pot Pol so to speak, do the Liir agree how 'cold' you have to be on that scale to be Suul'Ka. If you took a million Liir from different planets, and showed them a million different minds from all races , and you had them say 'Suul'ka' or 'non-suul'ka' would they 100% be in agreement who would be Suul'ka, or would there be cases where one Liir was quicker to call something Suul'ka than the other? That's what I mean with 'objective'.

Also, as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, Liir, unlike, say, humans, do not go 'halfway'. (most people are somewhat caring for their neighbours, but can be something of a bastard at other times) They're either measurably innocent and shiny, or they're Suul'ka, with the only ones 'walking the edge' being their Black swimmers?

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Re: The Liir

Post by fibio » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:19 pm

If you took a million Liir from different planets, and showed them a million different minds from all races , and you had them say 'Suul'ka' or 'non-suul'ka' would they 100% be in agreement who would be Suul'ka, or would there be cases where one Liir was quicker to call something Suul'ka than the other?


I believe that if they were all within metal earshot you would have a perfect consensus. And there is no point in isolating Liir as there are precious few that will ever hace to come to decisions on their own.
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Re: The Liir

Post by wingren013 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:05 am

Looks like my theory about the suul'ka was right after all
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Re: The Liir

Post by patton1942 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:02 am

yep. Hence your title "Casandra" Good show. :thumbsup:
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Re: The Liir

Post by o_o » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:34 am

Stupid question, but whatever: if the Suul'Ka can fold space with their minds to travel around, then why would they die from becoming too massive? It'd seem as if gravity stops being an issue once you can fold space.

As well, does their psionic ability grant them the knowledge necessary to construct advanced spaceships within decades from no industrial base at all? Are there relics left on the planet from previous attempts?

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Re: The Liir

Post by Simetra » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:50 am

You really want to fold space around a planet? Maybe not the best idea ;)

Dunno about the knowledge, but it doesn't seem to be a "spaceship" in a common sense, but a suit, maybe thats far easier ...

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Re: The Liir

Post by o_o » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:03 am

You really want to fold space around a planet? Maybe not the best idea ;)


Well, my thought is that gravity becomes the chief problem when the Liir gains enough mass. It would seem that if they can fold space of all things, then slight gravity manipulation around themselves may not be a stretch. Is this a reasonable assumption? Possibly, but who knows.

Dunno about the knowledge, but it doesn't seem to be a "spaceship" in a common sense, but a suit, maybe thats far easier ...


A space suit on that scale is just a space ship for one.

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