The Liir

All things Human, Hiver, Tarka, Liir, Zuul and Morrigi.

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Erinys
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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Thu May 26, 2011 5:21 pm

Alan is correct. The Liir fought its way out of the ship and fled when the Nodepoint opened.

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erdrik
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Re: The Liir

Post by erdrik » Thu May 26, 2011 9:53 pm

How close to an open Node Point does a Liir need to be in order to be affected/notice it?
I am imagining a group of Liir ships pursuing a Human ship and how the Liir would react if they were too close when the Human ship entered Node Space...

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Re: The Liir

Post by wingren013 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:15 pm

What exactly did the Suul'ka use the Liir and their planet for?

Is their any evidence of Morrigi interference with the Liir?

Is there any evidence that the Suul'ka had Liirian henchman/lackeys/collaborators/sympathizers?

Is there any evidence of Liir meeting other enslaved races or being taken from their homeworld (like an offworld slave compound)?
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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:23 am

:bangdesk:
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Re: The Liir

Post by usermist2 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:43 pm

@wing:

The Suul'ka forced the Liir into the equivalent of our Industrial Revolution, used them as slaves to produce their stuff, and made their population growth factor negative.

All of the SotS races have legends of dragons and angels, and have at some point met with the Traders, but all such encounters are now the stuff of legends and are extremely historically inaccurate.

The Liir have met the Zuul. They don't exactly get along in SotS 1.
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Re: The Liir

Post by patton1942 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:09 am

erdrik wrote:How close to an open Node Point does a Liir need to be in order to be affected/notice it?
I am imagining a group of Liir ships pursuing a Human ship and how the Liir would react if they were too close when the Human ship entered Node Space...


I always imagined the Liir was mostly terrified at the thought of going IN there, but they would be able to stomach being near them.

Something like being near the bonfire is uncomfortable, close enough and the heat gets to be too much. but is a HELL of a lot better than being IN the middle. ON FIRE.
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Re: The Liir

Post by Shogeton » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:50 am

Question: How are Black Swimmers recruited? The opening blurb suggests that at least some of them volunteer for the posiition, but the narrator remained very silent as to his motivation. Of course, just as with other races ,there can be many motivations, so it's not a 'yes/no' thing but more of a 'that's never/rarely/sometimes/often/always how it goes.'

Do Liir do it out of a sense of duty, after learning somehow that things are pretty messed up, the Zuul are coming for us, the Tarka seem to got our number and the humans decided to be opportunistic bastards and try to pick some worlds since everyone's gunning for us, we're all going to die if someone's not fighting, so I'll just die now then.

Do Liir do it because they feel they're 'already wrong from the start' somehow. As in that they know they really shouldn't to just shot out every little hurt ego from their fellow Liir, but they sometimes can't help but wish they could just... hurt that one Liir that's always so smug a little bit and... just, please, drown him, send him into the Black so he can kill some Suul'Ka without being a danger to the other Liir around him.

Do some Liir perhaps go that bit farther, and are perhaps for example caught practicing illegal mental techniques like closing off their mind to others like the Liir in the opening fiction, which I seem to remember is a VERY big nono. Could it happen that when such a criminal liir is caught, he's given the choice of death, having an Elder just 'fix' his mind or perhaps 'Drowning'. Some vague vibes of Song of Ice and Fire here with 'Taking the Black' and 'Going to the Wall' as a way to escape your crimes.

Do Liir perhaps do it not out of duty, or because they feel they're halfway to being 'murderers' already, but out of a sense of adventure and curiosity. The Black is scary of course, but it's also unknown, and the Liir are a very curious people. I can easily imagine a Liir just saying 'yeah, the sea is nice and all, but I wanna see the stars, and all these other things I vaguely hear about. If the only way that happens is drowning, well someone's gotta do it, might as well be someone who'll get some happiness out of it. How bad can it be?

Do Liir perhaps get recruited into it, if the need is high? Do Liir who are the 'least pacifistic' perhaps get a visit from a retired Black Swimmer who tells them what to expect, but well, the boys upthere really need a hand. It's a horrible thing, but horrible as it is, to survive the liir need people like you son. And you can come back from it, just look at me. (Just don't get in the crew of a Siege Driver)

Would it even, in dire need, be possible that Liir might be drafted forcibly into , or would they accept their race's descrution before resorting to that?

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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:32 am

Shogeton wrote:Question: How are Black Swimmers recruited?


The ones that are able to find the thought Drown themselves. It is the only way to join the fleet.

Do Liir do it out of a sense of duty.


Yes.

Do Liir do it because they feel they're 'already wrong from the start' somehow.


It is not possible to survive to adulthood among the Liir if you are "wrong from the start".

Do some Liir perhaps go that bit farther, and are perhaps for example caught practicing illegal mental techniques like closing off their mind to others like the Liir in the opening fiction, which I seem to remember is a VERY big nono. Could it happen that when such a criminal liir is caught, he's given the choice of death, having an Elder just 'fix' his mind or perhaps 'Drowning'. Some vague vibes of Song of Ice and Fire here with 'Taking the Black' and 'Going to the Wall' as a way to escape your crimes.


No. There is no such choice offered. Only Liir can Drown. Suul'ka must be destroyed.

I can easily imagine a Liir just saying 'yeah, the sea is nice and all, but I wanna see the stars, and all these other things I vaguely hear about.


Colonists do not have to Drown.

Would it even, in dire need, be possible that Liir might be drafted forcibly into , or would they accept their race's destcrution before resorting to that?


A difficult question to answer. Some thoughts may become impossible to hide in the very near future. But Liir/Zuul Admirals will never have the "Conscript" attribute, no. ;)

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Re: The Liir

Post by Shogeton » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:35 am

Well, colonists probably aren't gonna see a whole lot of the stars, since they're usually on a one way trip, and then they're back on another planet. Are there no Liir who are just curious about spacetravel, and just want to fly around, explore star systems, meet other races, go where no Liir has gone before, not because of duty, or because of need, but simply out of curiosity? Or is space simply too 'cold and scary' for Liir to do it.

On another question, I'm still trying to fully 'get' the Liir society. I mean, they're very much individual, and not simply all happy shiny people. What would be the kind of behaviour among Liir that's 'frowned upon' without being grounds for being pronounced Suul'ka and executed? And what kind of response would it get? Just keeping a close eye on them? Some brainscrubbing by an elder? Public shaming?

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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:07 pm

Shogeton wrote:Well, colonists probably aren't gonna see a whole lot of the stars, since they're usually on a one way trip, and then they're back on another planet. Are there no Liir who are just curious about spacetravel, and just want to fly around, explore star systems, meet other races, go where no Liir has gone before, not because of duty, or because of need, but simply out of curiosity? Or is space simply too 'cold and scary' for Liir to do it.


Curiosity is what might drive a younger Liir to interrogate his/her Elders, trying to find out what they know about the Black Sea and what swims there. But those who are strong and clever enough to succeed in uncovering the truth choose to Drown. There are no exceptions.

On another question, I'm still trying to fully 'get' the Liir society. I mean, they're very much individual, and not simply all happy shiny people. What would be the kind of behaviour among Liir that's 'frowned upon' without being grounds for being pronounced Suul'ka and executed? And what kind of response would it get? Just keeping a close eye on them? Some brainscrubbing by an elder? Public shaming?


Liir are pretty shiny and happy, I'm afraid. Many people have asked these questions about anti-social behavior before, but in a fully telepathic society it is not possible to commit acts that are "frowned upon" the way Humans do. All Liir are constantly bathed in the minds of other Liir, especially as children. Your thoughts and feelings are not your personal property unless you deliberately try to hide them, and this is exceptionally difficult when your Elders take an interest in the state of your mind.

The very use of the phrase "pronounced Suul'ka and executed" shows the deep core of your misunderstanding. No one is "pronounced" Suul'ka. When you stick your hand into a pool of liquid nitrogen, you do not "pronounce" the way your flesh shatters.

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Re: The Liir

Post by Torezu » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:14 pm

Erinys wrote:...you do not "pronounce" the way your flesh shatters.

--Arinn


"OW!" :lol:

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Re: The Liir

Post by Shogeton » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:03 pm

On another question, I'm still trying to fully 'get' the Liir society. I mean, they're very much individual, and not simply all happy shiny people. What would be the kind of behaviour among Liir that's 'frowned upon' without being grounds for being pronounced Suul'ka and executed? And what kind of response would it get? Just keeping a close eye on them? Some brainscrubbing by an elder? Public shaming?


Liir are pretty shiny and happy, I'm afraid. Many people have asked these questions about anti-social behavior before, but in a fully telepathic society it is not possible to commit acts that are "frowned upon" the way Humans do. All Liir are constantly bathed in the minds of other Liir, especially as children. Your thoughts and feelings are not your personal property unless you deliberately try to hide them, and this is exceptionally difficult when your Elders take an interest in the state of your mind.

The very use of the phrase "pronounced Suul'ka and executed" shows the deep core of your misunderstanding. No one is "pronounced" Suul'ka. When you stick your hand into a pool of liquid nitrogen, you do not "pronounce" the way your flesh shatters.

--Arinn[/quote]

Hah, I clearly don't quite 'get' the Liir yet, but I'm thinking understanding's coming on.

Hm, interesting. In a way they' are the more alien and inhuman of the races. So, to make sure I understand, the Liir's black and white view of the universe is very much a product of their own nature, in which you are a Liir and are fully pacifistic and drink in the feelings of others, or you are Suul'Ka, with the only terrain in between being the Black Swimmers. And being a Suul'ka, with regards to a Liir, is not a subjective moral judgement, it's an objective state of being (like 'having your arm frozen off by Liquid Nitrogen), am I right? With pronouncements of Suul'Ka on non-Liir being... the result of Liir trying to understand non-Liir with their frame of reference. Also, it's not like Liir couldn't pronounce eachother Suul'ka without them actually being it. It's been suggested that with an inter-Liir faction war, that's exactly what would happen, different factions would declare eachother Suul'ka, since that's the only way they could wage war on eachother. Obviously, if being a Suul'Ka is very much an objective thing, they would both be wrong, yet still they would be pronouncing it, right?

Also, Liir 'going Suul'ka'. How often does such a thing happen? Can it be caused by violent trauma (surviving a planetary bombardement could cause that) absence of other minds to mingle with (see surviving the planetary bombardement) or just simply a fatal cross between natural tendency and circumstances. Would only the drowned go Suul'ka, or can Liir in the water do it? Are Suul'ka easily recognizable as such to any Liir, or could a Suul'ka-fied Liir who's skilled at 'Hide the Thought' fake his way as long as he didn't encounter someone more skilled than he. On that subject, can Elders go Suul'Ka? If they do, and are not easily stopped, could they simply drag all Liir under his 'auspice'

Can Liir get angry at eachother? Without actually going through any violence, or even wishing the other party ill, but just in clear and loud thoughts tell that Liir that just that annoying thing that you really, REALLY wish they wouldn't do that again.

And, the more I think of Liir, the more questions I get, and I'll take full advantadge of your willingless to respond to them. ;) What happens when a Liir causes another Liri harm not through malice but by accident, possibly with some non-aggressive flaw (get someone hurt/killed through overconfidence, sloth, forgetfulness, etc.) Is the echoes of the pain of the death and the suffering of the ones that knew him enough to be considered punishment enough? Could Liir decide to drown out of remorse for such an action? Or is this something that might get you punished?

On the subject of 'The Terrible Secret of Space', just how secret is it? Is the existance of space even unknown? Is the very existance of other races? Probably not, since I imagine all those Liir down on the planet are the ones who are busy buildings ships, researching new weapons and space programs and do everything that the Black Swimmers themselves do not do. When Liir are producing nukes and lasers and other weapons, do they consider that 'troublesome' or is that too distant? Do Elders sometimes 'intervene' and remove some facts before it spreads and too many Liir cross the 'threshhold' which causes Liir who learn that much to go and Drown? How much do the 'breathing' Elders themselves know?

Regarding the way they build, do Liir have an economy, money? Or is it simply a case of everyone gets their food themselves, and specializes in certain jobs because hey, their minds were simply grown and groomed to want to help keeping the big Liir economical (and war-)machine going?

Also, the Liir seem to be as vulnerable as the next ract to tailor made drugs. How should I imagine such a drug to work, especially considering the mental aspect of the addiction might be something that's relatively easy to overcome for the Liir.

All in all, it's interesting. The more I learn about the Liir, the more they seem disturbing from a human perspective. Which I suspect might sometimes be the human reaction when they start to 'get' the Liir, assuming of course an Elder isn't making sure their reaction isn't too unpleasant. Moreso than even the Zuul, it seems a society that's pretty damn hard to grasp from a human perspective. I mean to oversimplify, we can understand ambition (Tarka) naked avarice and religious fanatism (Zuul) wanderlust and the desire to impress and protect mates (Morrigi) and deep and all overcoming love for family (Hiver) Of course, that's very much only part of the thing, there's a lot more to all those other cultures, but a human could generally look at it and say 'oh, okay, I can see this point of view' but the Liir seem to be closer to a 'hive mind' with their constant poking around at eachother's minds, than the actual Hivers.

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Erinys
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Re: The Liir

Post by Erinys » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:27 pm

*shakes her head sadly* Not everything can be explained now, for obvious reasons.

To answer the one question which matters: the Liir certainly understand that space exists. But most of them are not able to find out why their Elders cannot look up into the stars without feeling terror and dread.

Soon enough, everyone will know.

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Re: The Liir

Post by Gryfalcon » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:43 pm

It might help to read Engraved Apology if you haven't already.
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Re: The Liir

Post by Shogeton » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:48 pm

Oh, I read that one, it's actually the thing that got my whole line of questions started. Since the narrator there doesn't SAY why he's doing this, whether it is out of something shameful, something terrifying or even something selfish. And well, from one question comes another, mostly because, as said, my first questions showed that I didn't understand the Liir enough to 'get' the right ones.

Though, if from that whole list of questions I threw, there's one that's most on my mind. For a Liir looking at a Liir, is being a Suul'ka an actual, objective, measurable trait, rather than a moral judgement?

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