Do you like the mission system?

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Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Tue May 29, 2012 4:50 pm

marshb wrote:
Styx wrote:War IS logistics.
The man with the weakest supply chain loses every time, ask everyone who ever tried to invade Russia. :D

marshb wrote:I think what Styx wants is perhaps a bigger "clock" on supply. That endurance seems to short to him. Maybe with more "time', he'd feel more comfortable in setting up fleets on rotation, or establishing a beachhead so fleets can be assigned there? I dunno but maybe we'll see some light at the end of the tunnel when Mecrons new/modified movement commands come on line. :D


I dont think I should need to rotate entirely separate fleets, having admirals shuttling back and forth just to maintain a presence, I'd rather have a supply line system that keeps a remote position viable for longer.
What I really dont want is a game where you have to develop complex, co-ordinated fleet movements to work around a fundamental limitation. I dont see how the same people can stand up and say SOTS2 has less "micromanagement" and then insist on all these labour intensive workarounds.

I like that quote above! :D

I feel ya but don't know what to say. Maybe automating fleet rotations? (I know Mecrons not gonna like that too much.) it's not like Prime where there are 300 stars to keep track of. ;)


not a bad idea, as long as it does not effect the laggyness or end of turn delay. But still some of us like the planning part of the game...
Last edited by Borzol on Tue May 29, 2012 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 4:50 pm

Solution is pretty simple, if all fleets in a system can utilize the supply pool, you could boost mission length by sending a support fleet full of supply ships. IIRC that's planned, devs please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Tue May 29, 2012 4:59 pm

Agent.nihilist wrote:Solution is pretty simple, if all fleets in a system can utilize the supply pool, you could boost mission length by sending a support fleet full of supply ships. IIRC that's planned, devs please correct me if I'm wrong.


You cal already do this with a support fleet at homebase with the other fleet, I do not see why it cannot be used elsewhere, to agents point.

Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 5:07 pm

Borzol wrote:EDIT.Sorry this was due to a bug, you are correct when you say you cannot build stations without a colony inside the star system, apologies. You can do convert operations in the game if you plan what your fleets want to do in a given system right? It just involves thinking differently about planning your strategy? I am confused, how does the mission system NOT let you do this?

Sorry, I meant to reply to some posts before yours, but I was too slow. It doesn't involve thinking differently, what I want to do is currently impossible.


Borzol wrote:What do you mean by more? How does a move command add what your can already do with your fleets? You said you liked the supply and logistics system so in relation to that the move to mission does not add to what the fleets can already do.

But they can't move to a system far away from your empire and colonize it, they can't move deep into enemy territory. In order to move forward, you must pretty much colonize your way forward.

Agent.nihilist wrote:You can already do everything you just said you can't, right now, without any alterations, barring the never going to exist move command. Relocate IS move, Patrol is move outside of a base.

See above.

marshb wrote:I see what you want(?), a kind of "Doolittle Raid" kind of mechanic? (I don't mean to inject too much historical realism into what is supposed to be a fun game). It (the forward base/outpost) would have to be small, semi self-sufficient, and probably disposable? (I think it would have to have specific limitations lest you break the supply/mission system otherwise why use it when you can just bypass it doing this) This will definitely have to be taken up with the devs.

Yes something like that is what I want. Too be able to make a small colony far away, but also be able to expand that colony like any other and perhaps even be able to create a second territory.

And all the talk of supply is making my head spin :D
I keep to my other suggestion of just making some supply gathering ship/processing ship, and the fleet can move around more freely, but not unlimited.

Alganhar
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Alganhar » Tue May 29, 2012 5:08 pm

I hit the Human AI in my last game from behind the lines, but it took planning to do it.

The system in question was a major node system, with a total of 5 node lines into his empire, it was not however a front line world, neither had he colonised it. Only planet was a high CH size 1. If I could take and hold that system, I could cut his empire in half, and then defeat each half in detail. Strong forces placed at that node world meant he would HAVE to go through those forces to reinforce the now cut off southern half of his empire.

I set up 3 long range Combat groups, mostly of Armour cruisers and BR carriers, each ship was fit in a way to maximise endurance, so I used no missiles, lots of Camel modules, even dropped most of the Xavier modules I tend to use a lot of on my armour cruisers. These three fleets were set off on an overlapped patrol of the node system

As the patrols were ongoing, I then sent a well supplied Construction fleet to build a Naval base, taking note of how long it would take to get there. 12 turns as it happened (Lir Constructors are sloooow). Once the Construction fleet was 4 turns from Station down I sent a colony fleet in. The colony dropped as the Naval station was built.

As soon as that was done I redirected a second smaller construction fleet and a prebuilt permanent defence fleet and a Repair fleet to my new system.

Once they were in place I kept up the patrols until the first waves of attacks were over and the colony was on its feet (so supplying more repair points), before cancelling the patrol fleets.

Mission accomplished, the human empire was now cut in half. The Patrol fleets were then used for long range strikes to disable any naval bases I could find in the humans southern empire.

You CAN use the mission system to accomplish far reaching strategic and tactical objectives, but they have to be planned now.

I felt more accomplishment after pulling that off in SotS ][ than I ever would have in Prime.

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marshb
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by marshb » Tue May 29, 2012 5:16 pm

Excelent! :awesome:
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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 5:16 pm

Exitialis wrote:

Borzol wrote:What do you mean by more? How does a move command add what your can already do with your fleets? You said you liked the supply and logistics system so in relation to that the move to mission does not add to what the fleets can already do.

But they can't move to a system far away from your empire and colonize it, they can't move deep into enemy territory. In order to move forward, you must pretty much colonize your way forward.

Agent.nihilist wrote:You can already do everything you just said you can't, right now, without any alterations, barring the never going to exist move command. Relocate IS move, Patrol is move outside of a base.

See above.


What do you mean you can't colonize far away from your empire? Nothing other than maximum fleet range is stopping you.
You DO NOT have to colonize your way forward, you can build naval station in any system anywhere once you have deep space constructors, you just need a fleet with enough range to get there.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

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Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Tue May 29, 2012 5:29 pm

Alganhar wrote:I hit the Human AI in my last game from behind the lines, but it took planning to do it.

The system in question was a major node system, with a total of 5 node lines into his empire, it was not however a front line world, neither had he colonised it. Only planet was a high CH size 1. If I could take and hold that system, I could cut his empire in half, and then defeat each half in detail. Strong forces placed at that node world meant he would HAVE to go through those forces to reinforce the now cut off southern half of his empire.

I set up 3 long range Combat groups, mostly of Armour cruisers and BR carriers, each ship was fit in a way to maximise endurance, so I used no missiles, lots of Camel modules, even dropped most of the Xavier modules I tend to use a lot of on my armour cruisers. These three fleets were set off on an overlapped patrol of the node system

As the patrols were ongoing, I then sent a well supplied Construction fleet to build a Naval base, taking note of how long it would take to get there. 12 turns as it happened (Lir Constructors are sloooow). Once the Construction fleet was 4 turns from Station down I sent a colony fleet in. The colony dropped as the Naval station was built.

As soon as that was done I redirected a second smaller construction fleet and a prebuilt permanent defence fleet and a Repair fleet to my new system.

Once they were in place I kept up the patrols until the first waves of attacks were over and the colony was on its feet (so supplying more repair points), before cancelling the patrol fleets. That is not even using cloaked fleets too, which could be even more sneaky... :)

Mission accomplished, the human empire was now cut in half. The Patrol fleets were then used for long range strikes to disable any naval bases I could find in the humans southern empire.

You CAN use the mission system to accomplish far reaching strategic and tactical objectives, but they have to be planned now.

I felt more accomplishment after pulling that off in SotS ][ than I ever would have in Prime.


Got to try this sometime, sots 2 has a lot of strategic depth to be used. Usally I don't do much attacking till much later turns and I know I am still at the very least a intermediate player for SotS 2. Thats not even including using cloaked vessels to be even more sneaky! :)
Last edited by Borzol on Tue May 29, 2012 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Tue May 29, 2012 5:29 pm

Alganhar wrote:I hit the Human AI in my last game from behind the lines, but it took planning to do it.

The system in question was a major node system, with a total of 5 node lines into his empire, it was not however a front line world, neither had he colonised it. Only planet was a high CH size 1. If I could take and hold that system, I could cut his empire in half, and then defeat each half in detail. Strong forces placed at that node world meant he would HAVE to go through those forces to reinforce the now cut off southern half of his empire.

I set up 3 long range Combat groups, mostly of Armour cruisers and BR carriers, each ship was fit in a way to maximise endurance, so I used no missiles, lots of Camel modules, even dropped most of the Xavier modules I tend to use a lot of on my armour cruisers. These three fleets were set off on an overlapped patrol of the node system

As the patrols were ongoing, I then sent a well supplied Construction fleet to build a Naval base, taking note of how long it would take to get there. 12 turns as it happened (Lir Constructors are sloooow). Once the Construction fleet was 4 turns from Station down I sent a colony fleet in. The colony dropped as the Naval station was built.

As soon as that was done I redirected a second smaller construction fleet and a prebuilt permanent defence fleet and a Repair fleet to my new system.

Once they were in place I kept up the patrols until the first waves of attacks were over and the colony was on its feet (so supplying more repair points), before cancelling the patrol fleets.

Mission accomplished, the human empire was now cut in half. The Patrol fleets were then used for long range strikes to disable any naval bases I could find in the humans southern empire.

You CAN use the mission system to accomplish far reaching strategic and tactical objectives, but they have to be planned now.

I felt more accomplishment after pulling that off in SotS ][ than I ever would have in Prime.


It seems that what you can and cannot do with the current system is merely limited by your own mind. Good job Alganhar :thumbsup:
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Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 6:07 pm

"Less micromanagement", with a move order, strategies with the same result would be much less cumbersome to perform.
But it still isn't what I'm trying to get to or describe here. I don't know how to explain it further.

Right now, in order to get to to point A from Z I have to colonize/stationize (lol) X, V, T, S, Q, O, M.. etc.. where as with a move order combined with a resource/supply gathering/processing ship, this can be done in one single Z-A. Not only that, but I would save TONS of money. And it would go faster, and it would allow other players doing the same thing, creating more interesting situations.
It would open up a whole new world of strategy.

(Also note, that I for the most part play on maps with several hundred systems. Never less than 100. And always the maximum ammount of players)

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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Exitialis wrote:"Less micromanagement", with a move order, strategies with the same result would be much less cumbersome to perform.
But it still isn't what I'm trying to get to or describe here. I don't know how to explain it further.

Right now, in order to get to to point A from Z I have to colonize/stationize (lol) X, V, T, S, Q, O, M.. etc.. where as with a move order combined with a resource/supply gathering/processing ship, this can be done in one single Z-A. Not only that, but I would save TONS of money. And it would go faster, and it would allow other players doing the same thing, creating more interesting situations.
It would open up a whole new world of strategy.

(Also note, that I for the most part play on maps with several hundred systems. Never less than 100. And always the maximum ammount of players)


Pretty much everything you are describing, even though you still claim to like the supply and logistics aspect of SotS2, seems to be pushing for a return back to the model of SotS Prime where the only thing you needed to concern yourself with is repair points and fuel. The parallel is so direct that in prime you would never really run out of it, you could mine fuel from any place you happen to be at, thus allowing your fleet to move wherever and whenever it wanted to for as long as it wanted to.

This also explains why you don't respond to the multiple posts like this one:

Agent.nihilist wrote:What do you mean you can't colonize far away from your empire? Nothing other than maximum fleet range is stopping you.
You DO NOT have to colonize your way forward, you can build naval station in any system anywhere once you have deep space constructors, you just need a fleet with enough range to get there.


Since these posts clearly state that the major item you claim you want to do, you can do with a little bit of planning.

Now, if that isn't what you really want to do, but what you want instead is to just move your fleets wherever you want and leave it there for however long you want (ala SotS Prime), then you are actually looking to make your game LESS strategic than what is currently presented in SotS2 IMO.

Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 6:31 pm

gennadius wrote:
Exitialis wrote:"Less micromanagement", with a move order, strategies with the same result would be much less cumbersome to perform.
But it still isn't what I'm trying to get to or describe here. I don't know how to explain it further.

Right now, in order to get to to point A from Z I have to colonize/stationize (lol) X, V, T, S, Q, O, M.. etc.. where as with a move order combined with a resource/supply gathering/processing ship, this can be done in one single Z-A. Not only that, but I would save TONS of money. And it would go faster, and it would allow other players doing the same thing, creating more interesting situations.
It would open up a whole new world of strategy.

(Also note, that I for the most part play on maps with several hundred systems. Never less than 100. And always the maximum ammount of players)


Pretty much everything you are describing, even though you still claim to like the supply and logistics aspect of SotS2, seems to be pushing for a return back to the model of SotS Prime where the only thing you needed to concern yourself with is repair points and fuel. The parallel is so direct that in prime you would never really run out of it, you could mine fuel from any place you happen to be at, thus allowing your fleet to move wherever and whenever it wanted to for as long as it wanted to.

This also explains why you don't respond to the multiple posts like this one:

Agent.nihilist wrote:What do you mean you can't colonize far away from your empire? Nothing other than maximum fleet range is stopping you.
You DO NOT have to colonize your way forward, you can build naval station in any system anywhere once you have deep space constructors, you just need a fleet with enough range to get there.


Since these posts clearly state that the major item you claim you want to do, you can do with a little bit of planning.

Now, if that isn't what you really want to do, but what you want instead is to just move your fleets wherever you want and leave it there for however long you want (ala SotS Prime), then you are actually looking to make your game LESS strategic than what is currently presented in SotS2 IMO.

I have answered.
Please re-read my posts one more time. :(
And no it's not less strategic. It's a matter of opinion.
And I do not want the same system as prime.
You are looking at details that do not exist, and make assumptions based on them.

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marshb
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by marshb » Tue May 29, 2012 6:34 pm

Exitialis wrote:"Less micromanagement", with a move order, strategies with the same result would be much less cumbersome to perform.
But it still isn't what I'm trying to get to or describe here. I don't know how to explain it further.

Right now, in order to get to to point A from Z I have to colonize/stationize (lol) X, V, T, S, Q, O, M.. etc.. where as with a move order combined with a resource/supply gathering/processing ship, this can be done in one single Z-A. Not only that, but I would save TONS of money. And it would go faster, and it would allow other players doing the same thing, creating more interesting situations.
It would open up a whole new world of strategy.

(Also note, that I for the most part play on maps with several hundred systems. Never less than 100. And always the maximum ammount of players)


I have answered.
Please re-read my posts one more time. :(
And no it's not less strategic. It's a matter of opinion.
And I do not want the same system as prime.
You are looking at details that do not exist, and make assumptions based on them.


I'm sorry Exitialis, but it seems were right back to movement like prime again, and undermining the mission/logistics mechanics. An impasse I'm afraid. :(
Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 6:47 pm

Exitialis wrote:Right now, in order to get to to point A from Z I have to colonize/stationize (lol) X, V, T, S, Q, O, M.. etc.. where as with a move order combined with a resource/supply gathering/processing ship, this can be done in one single Z-A. Not only that, but I would save TONS of money. And it would go faster, and it would allow other players doing the same thing, creating more interesting situations.
It would open up a whole new world of strategy.


Fleets have a Maximum range, that is set by there speed multiplied by how many turns of supply they have (Endurance). So if you have speed 7 fleet with an endurance of 6 you can travel a maximum distance of 42 before return to base. Operating outside that is range is difficult, because your fleet can't carry enough supply to go further.
So you can either Colonize prospective planet closer to your goal, or you can place a naval station at the edge of your current range. Thus doubling your range in that area.

Your suggestion seems like you are trying to bypass the system to allow behavior the game wasn't designed for, and in several cases was designed to prevent. You also seem to be missing that it does not matter if you can get more fuel to your ships, they still need fresh crew and other supplies. Material gathering to refuel isn't going to feed your crew.

I have to Agree with MarshB, you didn't answer my questions.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 6:52 pm

Exitialis wrote:I have answered.
Please re-read my posts one more time. :(
And no it's not less strategic. It's a matter of opinion.
And I do not want the same system as prime.
You are looking at details that do not exist, and make assumptions based on them.


I have read all of your posts. In fact, some of them I have read several times simply to ensure that I wasn't missing anything, since the request didn't make sense to me in the context of you claiming you liked the SotS 2 supply and logistics system.

No matter how many times I read it, no matter how many times you re-phrase or re-word your base desire, it still all boils down to the same thing. You want movement much closer to SotS Prime, if not exactly like it. I am not making assumptions, I am going purely based off the words that you have written multiple times and multiple ways on this very thread.

Whether it is more strategic or not is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of perspective. A strategic perspective is much larger in scope, not simply concerned with just a movement order. It involves being able to manage your supply constraints, plan long term fleet movements to accomplish goals, and take into account the bases and fleets that are based out of those bases.

This makes LOCATION of bases much more important, regardless of if they are around your own colony or not. This makes strategic elements like defensive depth possible, since you can take forward positions that are not colonies, but just bases for your navy. This importance on location in turn makes things like deep raids strategically important as well, since if you execute a well planned deep-raid, you may be able to ruin or severely disrupt an opponent, forcing them to re-deploy fleets from other positions to picket systems that they now view as vulnerable. Or it may take some of their fleets off other duties to search for the base that you launched that deep raid from.

These are all strategic elements that the (more realistic) system in SotS 2 permits that were not (strictly speaking) possible in SotS Prime. In SotS prime, and the type of movement that you claim to want, where all the choices are available and you can go wherever and whenever you want, perspective is really much more tactical than strategic. The scope is limited to the fleet movement and the target/objective with the only real objectives being colony destruction, fleet destruction, or to generate reaction movement from an enemy fleet. There is no real way to impact the enemy strategically in this model since the concerns are all primarily tactical.

*clarified a sentence with a better word on edit*

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