Do you like the mission system?

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 9:37 pm

Exitialis wrote:

Agent.nihilist and gennadius, you are both saying that deep strikes are possible in vanilla sots 2, prove this to me. I want you to make a jump 10 or 20 sectors into enemy territory and from that place, raid strategic locations. The order has been issued.
[/quote]
Right here Somebody already did.
Personally, for deepstrike missions I use AM fleets with a rider DN or 2, some Assault shuttle CRs, a few pd escorts and many supply CR(or a Supply DN if I have the tech), Something like that can reach out and touch someone from one side of ring to the other.

But lets talk about the actual situation you are finding yourself in.
How many systems are between you and the enemy?
How many Naval stations are you putting up in deepspace?
Where are you basing your fleet from?
What is the avg Endurance for one of your fleets?
How many Supply ships do you include in a fleet?

Exitialis wrote: don't understand how you can think that a basic freedom of movement will impair strategy, it will only add. And it will not ruin the current system.

You aren't asking for basic freedom of movement though, that would be asking for an "Explore Mission" that let you go from system to system as long as you have remaining endurance. You are asking for an entire subsystem of support bent around bypassing supply limitations. A movement model that was in the first game, but is fundamentally incompatible with the advanced logistics model of the second.
Last edited by Agent.nihilist on Tue May 29, 2012 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 9:44 pm

Exitialis wrote:
Agent.nihilist wrote:Also, where are you getting food in deepspace from? Rocks?

I don't know how healthy chewing rocks would be. ;p
Personally, I would gather biological material from planets, as well as all other resources from planets. Deep space gathering seems rather pointless when you have a large heap of collected material within range, don't you think?
High-tech stuff is the solution, and let's not get lost into the details, for them we could discuss until the end of day.
The two basic items would be "Resources" and "Supply" you gather "Resources" with a "Resource" ship and process it with either a module on the "Resource" ship or with an entire "Processing" ship, to make the "Resources" into "Supply", catch my drift?

Agent.nihilist and gennadius, you are both saying that deep strikes are possible in vanilla sots 2, prove this to me. I want you to make a jump 10 or 20 sectors into enemy territory and from that place, raid strategic locations. The order has been issued.

I don't understand how you can think that a basic freedom of movement will impair strategy, it will only add. And it will not ruin the current system.


It has been explained multiple times. Yes you need to build forward bases, but it is possible to plan out where and how to place those bases, and then design a fleet with extra endurance to raid deep into an enemy system. This is exactly what I meant by power projection and defense in depth. By having a strategy that puts you in a position where you have strategic flexibility, you have the option to do those things.

To have those types of raids, you do need better engines (i.e. bigger range), and some of the tweaks that have been discussed will also help achieve your extended raiding goals, but it is still possible to raid deep into enemy controlled territory.

What you cannot do is send a fleet off to go do whatever (whether it is raiding, patrolling, scouting, or like in SotS Prime, just sitting there) for decades. This didn't make sense in Prime, but it was part of the mechanics of the game that you could do that. It definitely doesn't make sense now in SotS 2, since the mechanisms are in place to explicitly PREVENT that from happening because it isn't realistic within the scope of the SotSverse.

There is no magical matter converter to make food out of random bio-stuff from a system that you haven't even surveyed! Does it even make sense to say that you can go into any system, even if the climate hazards are terrible for your race, and still some how make magic food out of things?

From the mechanical side it make only slightly more sense. There are some things that you just won't be able to build, or won't be able to fix on a ship outside of a dock. This is true in the real world, and it is true in the SotSverse.

Waving a magic wand just because you want to make things work doesn't make things any less micro-intensive. It definitely doesn't make it "more strategic" as you claim. You are constantly confusing strategy with tactics. You haven't addressed any of the counter-examples we have given you regarding how SotS 2 actually adds strategic depth, yet we are always addressing your one SINGLE example.

Nor have you addressed how this is really any different than SotS Prime. Or have you conceded that point finally? Again, replace "Resources" and "Supply" with "Fuel" and you are back to tanker/refinery mechanics of SotS Prime.

Checkers versus chess I'm telling you...

[edited for small typos]
Last edited by gennadius on Tue May 29, 2012 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mecron
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Tue May 29, 2012 9:47 pm

Pacific war vs imaginary war ;)

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Tue May 29, 2012 9:48 pm

Exitialis, it sounds like what you want is.. not sots2, at least, not sots2 as Kerberos intended. My best and last advice I can give you is to go make yourself at home in the modding forums and make friends there as you will be spending a LOT of time both there and with your fellow modders (at least instead of wanting Kerberos to change SotS2 for you)

I wish you all the luck with you modding your vision of how you want sots2 to play as some of the things you want... might be difficult to implement but I don't know how much is hardcoded.
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 9:49 pm

Mecron wrote:Pacific war vs imaginary war ;)


Heh...true story.

Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 9:58 pm

I agree, the modding forum is my place. I want too much change, and it's unreasonable to request it.

I am very passionate about this game, as there are so few 4x games that are good. I consider this a great work, more so the tactical part. I have a few issues with the strategical part, but they are not many. And I guess I will be have to change them, to the best of my ability.
I am sorry that I wasted your time...
Good night.

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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 10:05 pm

Exitialis wrote:I agree, the modding forum is my place. I want too much change, and it's unreasonable to request it.

I am very passionate about this game, as there are so few 4x games that are good. I consider this a great work, more so the tactical part. I have a few issues with the strategical part, but they are not many. And I guess I will be have to change them, to the best of my ability.
I am sorry that I wasted your time...
Good night.


A good honest debate is never a waste of time. In fact, it often helps flesh out both positions and sometimes the places in between. :)

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 10:09 pm

Exitialis wrote:I agree, the modding forum is my place. I want too much change, and it's unreasonable to request it.

I am very passionate about this game, as there are so few 4x games that are good. I consider this a great work, more so the tactical part. I have a few issues with the strategical part, but they are not many. And I guess I will be have to change them, to the best of my ability.
I am sorry that I wasted your time...
Good night.

You know we aren't just trying to shoot you down? I at least am trying to figure put where you are running into your issues. Because what you are saying you can't do are things that can be done. I don't have the information to help you though. Can't speak for everyone, but part of the frustration here is by bringing up the move concept over and over, it feels like instead of learning how to use the system, you just want add in a workaround.

But lets talk about the actual situation you are finding yourself in.
How many systems are between you and the enemy?
How many Naval stations are you putting up in deepspace?
Where are you basing your fleet from?
What is the avg Endurance for one of your fleets?
How many Supply ships do you include in a fleet?

If you could answer even some of those we can figure out where you are running into roadblocks.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Tue May 29, 2012 10:38 pm

We are ALL passionate about the game, borderline fanatical perhaps.

Hence the spirited debates :awesome:
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
Korgan wrote:probably a pelvic thrust
Mecron wrote:oy that is wrong at so many levels...well done! :P

Xehlwan
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Xehlwan » Tue May 29, 2012 11:03 pm

A small question that may be related to Exitialis' frustration: How exactly does endurance work?

I know the idea of more endurance = better range. I understand the simulation of supplies, food, crew and all of these things. I love this added realism. What I have a hard time grasping is how to predict what all of these numbers will mean for my missions. Is there some way for me to know how far I can send a survey fleet, or how long I can keep a patrol going, without trial and error?

Trying to play Zuul is even more confusing, with differing range depending on existing nodelines. I still can't figure out how my fleet is able to survey one system 9ly away, while boring a new nodeline, but unable to do the exact same thing for a system 7ly away.

I can still play by adding more endurance, or re-basing, a fleet that is out of range. I'd be much happier if I could predict these needs. ;)

Atlanton
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Atlanton » Tue May 29, 2012 11:05 pm

I personally like the mission system, but it certainly takes some getting used to. After spending some time with it, it reminds me vaguely of how supply, aircraft and navies work in Hearts of Iron.

However, having not lurked hard enough here on the Kerberos forums, I'm still getting familiarized with the scope that they've created with SOTS2 vs SOTS. Perhaps you guys can help me understand by crushi--- I mean critiquing an addition to the mission system.

Perhaps an idea to steal from HOI would be the supply drop/transport concept of airplanes and boats bringing supplies/personnel to and from stationed forces. In SOTS2, a transport ship could constantly bring food, ammunition, crew, and spare parts to and from home base. This would allow a fleet to indefinitely hold a solar system, provided that it had constant and adequate supporting ships. This would give commanders an additional battlefield liability, just as with freighters, that have to be protected from clever enemies. This would not be a relabeled refinery ship, since the ship would always be coming to/from base and thus would need to have sufficient command and endurance.

I'm probably going off the deep end here, but it would be cool to even see this "supply" system model how newer colonies may not have the supplies to maintain a fleet that's relocated there. In such a case, fleets stationed on new colonies would still have to be supplied from a developed colony or star-base until either the colony has been developed or a naval base has been built.

Of course... this ties back to Kerberos' intentions with the fleet system, and what is being modeled vs being abstracted. If Kerberos intends fleets to have abstracted supply logistics, then the current system works well, juggling multiple fleets and their returns to base. Is the idea of expanding supply beyond endurance outside of SOTS2 scope?

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 11:32 pm

Personally I've always been partial to the idea that Fleets in a system can share a supply pool. AKA send 3 fleets to a system, 2 combat and one full o supply ships. If the combat fleet are both 500/1000 (2 Endurance) and the Supply Fleet is 500/6000 (12 Endurance) All three fleets could stay for 5 Turns (1500/8000) instead of 2.
Don't know if this is something that's actually on the table or not, but I've heard it thrown around a few times.

It wouldn't let you send fleets further out, but would let you keep a fleet around for longer.

Edit: @ Xehlwan
I may be incorrect but I believe endurance is Consumed Supply over Total supply, so a Fleet using 500 supply but storing 6000 would have a 12T Endurance. Range is Speed divided by 4 times endurance.

So a 12T fleet with a speed of 7 can travel 21 LYs outside of supply range.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

Torquist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Torquist » Tue May 29, 2012 11:55 pm

Exitialis wrote:Agent.nihilist and gennadius, you are both saying that deep strikes are possible in vanilla sots 2, prove this to me. I want you to make a jump 10 or 20 sectors into enemy territory and from that place, raid strategic locations. The order has been issued.


I don't know if this will acheive the distances you are after, but it sounds like Liir are for you. They have outrageous Endurance and no annoying node lines to worry about. Max out your Supply on each of your ship designs, put Camel modules anywhere they can fit. Use only energy weapons. Balance out your fleet composition to what you want to acheive.

I've got some serious range in my games. Love Liir :love:

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Wed May 30, 2012 12:12 am

Torquist wrote:
Exitialis wrote:Agent.nihilist and gennadius, you are both saying that deep strikes are possible in vanilla sots 2, prove this to me. I want you to make a jump 10 or 20 sectors into enemy territory and from that place, raid strategic locations. The order has been issued.


I don't know if this will acheive the distances you are after, but it sounds like Liir are for you. They have outrageous Endurance and no annoying node lines to worry about. Max out your Supply on each of your ship designs, put Camel modules anywhere they can fit. Use only energy weapons. Balance out your fleet composition to what you want to acheive.

I've got some serious range in my games. Love Liir :love:

Yea Liir were attacking me from the other side of the map in my ring game, and that was only 60 or so turns in!
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

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Korgan
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Korgan » Wed May 30, 2012 12:40 am

Of course as soon as you start using the specialized sections(blazer, torpedo, etc) on Liir you'll lose most that higher endurance even with camels(anywhere from 1-4T max depending on torp types, etc)

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