Do you like the mission system?

Talk about all things to do with the sequel to our flagship 4X title.

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ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Thu May 31, 2012 10:55 am

Regarding admirals, correct me if i'm wrong but:

Each colony gives you an admiral
Each naval station gives you an admiral
Each level of upgrading a naval yard gives you an admiral
You can form the looks of it have as many captured admirals as you have normal admirals
I do not know if converting an enemy admiral conts towards your total or falls under the captured admiral list.

To give you an idea of how hard it is to run out of admirals. In a game on the Duel map I own half of the systems. The game has been nice to me and given me quite a few habitable planets but I have 33! admiral slots with only a few extra naval bases. On the duel map that is more than I will ever use.
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
Korgan wrote:probably a pelvic thrust
Mecron wrote:oy that is wrong at so many levels...well done! :P

Jorgen_CAB
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Jorgen_CAB » Thu May 31, 2012 11:00 am

In my opinion we seem to get a little too many admirals for the moment, but I will wait for the game to finish until I give a final call for that eventual problem/issue.

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 11:24 am

DandyOne wrote:
Mecron wrote:Love the discussion, just cautioning when both sides reach that "Why can't you seeeeeeeeee?!!!!" stage and I also thought dandy's post neatly summarized the line where you have to go "Fair enough". After that if dandy is interested in knowing more about the system that is instead of the one that was, you kinda have to let him take the convo there.
Just to clarify. I think that SotS Prime movement system is superior at the moment, but I'm still hopeful that SotS II mission system will make sense to me in the end, as I don't consider it (or the SotS II for that matter) a finished thing.


That is a understanding perspective Dandyone. We have to remember though it would be a exercise in lunacy at this point when people keep saying I want SotS 2 to have SotS 1 movement, when the develpers have talked about not changing the SotS 2 system, prior to launch and after. I hope you can explore the mission system more and use it to your advantage as the other experienced players have shown in this thread. Or if you want to use a thread I made for help you can use this too viewtopic.php?f=37&t=31981.

As the thread seems to be about SotS 1 more than a actually discussion on what can be improved WITH the mission system itself, including the new SotS 2 logistics/supply system.

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 1:47 pm

Heart of Storm wrote:Gonna need an example here, of why this is *needed* - I can see this opening the door to players going back to SotS1 tactics of survey fleets with 'just in case' colonisers. - surveying a system then changing the mission to colonise when they discover an acceptable planet, which is the sort of thing that the mission system is meant to stop.


Well, why? I mean why can't a colony fleet survey and colonize (assuming the fleet has sufficient supply)? This even makes for interesting admiral choices, such as Pathfinder for faster survey (to start colony faster) vs. Greenthumb/Good Shepherd.

Also, suppose I've sent a fleet on patrol from base A to system B (outside my supply bubble). The fleet's been on station briefly when enemy fleet(s) show up on scanner on invasion routes to System C. If the fleet has sufficient supply, why can't I redirect it to patrol/interdict in system C?

These are examples of mission redirects that make sense assuming Kerberos "trusts" the supply mechanic. If they don't trust the supply mechanic to prevent truly "over the top" results, what can be done to improve the mechanic? Should surveying require a Mission section?

Jorgen_CAB
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Jorgen_CAB » Thu May 31, 2012 2:02 pm

This particular issue has been talked to death on these forums... mission supply are suppose to reflect special equipment and crew with particular skills. A survey fleet would not bring the same amount of ammunition, combat crew as a patrol fleet and a patrol fleet would not carry survey equipment or the same amount of scientists etc... all these things are an abstraction.

When you look at reality you will surly understand why things are as they are. Missions in reality usually perform specific tasks and are also tooled for them. The missions system does, in my opinion, reflect this in an abstracted and subtle way, that, and at the same time increases the number of strategic decision you need to make in the process.

Some people don't like simulation of reality and just want a game, some like me like the role-playing (reality simulation) part of the game as much as the game itself. ;)

Styx
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 2:50 pm

Jorgen_CAB wrote:Some people don't like simulation of reality and just want a game, some like me like the role-playing (reality simulation) part of the game as much as the game itself. ;)

Simulation of reality? I WANT TO LIVE IN YOUR REALITY!!
Take me with you when you go, oh great visiting alien overlord! :D

While we're waiting for the survey fleet to collect us however, I have to say that I agree with him. There's no reason why a single multipurpose fleet shouldnt be able to switch tasks. I definitely want to send out a fleet to survey 2-3 systems and colonise whatever planet is best, then permanently rebase themselves at the new colony. Why should they have to keep coming back and forth to do that?
I want the fleet to have the option of building a station instead of colonising if the planets turn out to be lifeless rocks.
I want to attack an enemy planet, wipe out his snivelling colonists, pause to build a new station to keep an eye on the ruins and then go home via another planet that needs surveying while they're passing.
If the enemy forces sneak out just before my interdiction fleet arrives, I want them to be able to change plans and invade, then patrol the smoking remnants for as long as my endurance will last hoping his ships come back.

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 3:04 pm

Jorgen_CAB wrote:This particular issue has been talked to death on these forums... mission supply are suppose to reflect special equipment and crew with particular skills. A survey fleet would not bring the same amount of ammunition, combat crew as a patrol fleet and a patrol fleet would not carry survey equipment or the same amount of scientists etc... all these things are an abstraction.


Except I don't get in reality why a fleet of 9 ships needs years and an entire outfit of survey only equipment to decide how many planets are in a system and what their atmospheres are made of. I mean, who the hell cares what the last little pluto-like planetoid is? Start with the planets in the most likely habitable spots and start giving me reports ASAP!

This is what happens, btw, when invoking "reality". Reality of exploring and colonizing other systems is we don't know what the reality will be. The reality of this game is that Kerberos has a really interesting (imo) strategic setup with the fleet + mission system, but there are some definite game mechanic limititations that annoy me (and evidently others) and they should be considered for change.

When you look at reality you will surly understand why things are as they are. Missions in reality usually perform specific tasks and are also tooled for them. The missions system does, in my opinion, reflect this in an abstracted and subtle way, that, and at the same time increases the number of strategic decision you need to make in the process.


But there could be other ways of implementing the strategic decisions that are even more subtle while allowing new degrees of flexibility. For instance, survey mission sections could be required. Now, to make a fleet that can survey and swap to colonize effectively, the player has to decide on an overall fleet composition. They already will have to decide which Admiral to use. Different races will likely come up with different good fleet comps depending on their tech and FTL mechanics. Etc.

Furthermore, the ability to redirect a Patrol fleet (e.g.) already has the "subtle" supply strategic element because the fleet composition has to have the supply need to pull off the mission change. A typical home patrol fleet with weak/no supply isn't going to do this, where as a longer range patrol fleet is going to have paid a price on combat power.

Some people don't like simulation of reality and just want a game, some like me like the role-playing (reality simulation) part of the game as much as the game itself. ;)


Not helpful.

ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Thu May 31, 2012 3:13 pm

because it's batshit insane to bring along thousands of frozen colonists on a trip where you may or may not find habitable planets, only to have to go BACK or further on and having wasted YEARS of you life for NOTHING.

Having limited control over adding or changing the mission slightly is rumored to be coming in but not changing survey mission to colonization mission.

It's that sort of abuse the mission system tries to eliminate. Say what you will we are gamers and we will game EVERY system given to us regardless of the moral ramifications (most of us anyways)
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
Korgan wrote:probably a pelvic thrust
Mecron wrote:oy that is wrong at so many levels...well done! :P

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 3:18 pm

ForceUser wrote:because it's batshit insane to bring along thousands of frozen colonists on a trip where you may or may not find habitable planets, only to have to go BACK or further on and having wasted YEARS of you life for NOTHING.


If they're really frozen, you haven't wasted years of their life. If your race is in a strategic race to colonize the galaxy, then we're now way off of batshit insane as far as ideas go.

Having limited control over adding or changing the mission slightly is rumored to be coming in but not changing survey mission to colonization mission.


Citation needed.

It's that sort of abuse the mission system tries to eliminate. Say what you will we are gamers and we will game EVERY system given to us regardless of the moral ramifications (most of us anyways)


Nope, not interested in every system. If you don't get what I'm saying, please don't respond. I find your posts to be way over the top way too frequently. Just because Kerberos has final say over the game doesn't mean some of us can't come up with interesting stuff for them to think about.

Styx
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 3:24 pm

Here are your orders admiral;
"Take these colonists, piss off and find somewhere for them to live, they're cluttering up the place. When you find somewhere for them, you might as well stay there."

What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. You need to expand, you dont know of any good planets, and you dont have time to survey half a dozen worlds looking for the best option. So you send the fleet out from planet to planet and when they see a likely candidate, they stop.

You could require a communication tech to change orders mid mission, but its perfectly reasonable to do it. As Unthinking_pain said, the strategy is in the fleet composition. A multi-purpose fleet needs to have colonisers, construction ships, supply ships, fighting ships and CNC. Jack of all trades, master of none. If you set out to just survey, you'll take supply ships, fast ships, appropriate admiral etc.

ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Thu May 31, 2012 3:29 pm

Unthinking_Pain wrote:
ForceUser wrote:because it's batshit insane to bring along thousands of frozen colonists on a trip where you may or may not find habitable planets, only to have to go BACK or further on and having wasted YEARS of you life for NOTHING.


If they're really frozen, you haven't wasted years of their life. If your race is in a strategic race to colonize the galaxy, then we're now way off of batshit insane as far as ideas go.
:headbang:
- No freezing is perfect.
- Theres always the chance of DIEING when waking up. Lets do that multiple times because we MIGHT find a habitable planet.
- Friends/family of the frozen people will have aged more, people will see their children and grandchildren die before them. Sounds like fun.
- Sounds like a good idea to get frozen for an indefinite time with the guys in charge saying, meh we might get a planet but if not, could be another, oh, 5 years, maybe more *shrug*

Having limited control over adding or changing the mission slightly is rumored to be coming in but not changing survey mission to colonization mission.


Citation needed.
You are form the Internet aren't you? have you even read any of the posts on the mission system at all? You are doing this just to be obstinate. Nice.


It's that sort of abuse the mission system tries to eliminate. Say what you will we are gamers and we will game EVERY system given to us regardless of the moral ramifications (most of us anyways)


Nope, not interested in every system.
What? system as in GAME system as in game play mechanic... wth. This is what MAKES use gamers, we GAME the system given to us by game makers...

If you don't get what I'm saying, please don't respond. I find your posts to be way over the top way too frequently. Just because Kerberos has final say over the game doesn't mean some of us can't come up with interesting stuff for them to think about.

Yes fantastic you got ideas, I love that about kerberos, they love people having ideas and even use them, regularly. Heck they even made a forum SPECIFICALLY for that, isn't that just amazing?

If you are serious about an idea and really want to help make the game better, post it in the suggestion forum. If you just want internet arguments, post your ideas in general by prefacing them with "current system sucks my idea is better"
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
Korgan wrote:probably a pelvic thrust
Mecron wrote:oy that is wrong at so many levels...well done! :P

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 3:31 pm

Its not a bad idea to have suggestions for the mission system, that goes along with its logistics and supply system. The system is trying to be less wasteful with your fleet though, a fleet that is designed to survey at a better rate is always better than a multi-purpose fleet. For the time it takes a multipurpose fleet more time to survey because its not outfitted as such, will mean that sending a fleet prior that does the job of surveying better.

In SotS 1 you could have multi-purpose fleets, but that is a different game with a different system of logistics and supply. Again going back to the old argument that SotS 2 is NOT SotS 1 and as such, arguing to make it SotS 1 way is redundant since the developer has said many times they like and will keep the fleet/mission system (and more of the experienced players).

ForceUser wrote:because it's batshit insane to bring along thousands of frozen colonists on a trip where you may or may not find habitable planets, only to have to go BACK or further on and having wasted YEARS of you life for NOTHING.

It's that sort of abuse the mission system tries to eliminate. Say what you will we are gamers and we will game EVERY system given to us regardless of the moral ramifications (most of us anyways)


Basically its also to help stop fleet spamming (Zerg'ing Starcraft reference), instead the player needs to actually Plan versus just rushing to planet to planet with NO plan. Also mostly Grand Empire Galaxy Strategy = Planning, Strategy Does Not equal Zerg,

Styx wrote:Here are your orders admiral;
"Take these colonists, piss off and find somewhere for them to live, they're cluttering up the place. When you find somewhere for them, you might as well stay there."

What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. You need to expand, you dont know of any good planets, and you dont have time to survey half a dozen worlds looking for the best option. So you send the fleet out from planet to planet and when they see a likely candidate, they stop.

You could require a communication tech to change orders mid mission, but its perfectly reasonable to do it. As Unthinking_pain said, the strategy is in the fleet composition. A multi-purpose fleet needs to have colonisers, construction ships, supply ships, fighting ships and CNC. Jack of all trades, master of none. If you set out to just survey, you'll take supply ships, fast ships, appropriate admiral etc.


Again to stop fleet spamming as you actually need to make a plan with your fleets and have different fleets specialize, like the modern navy, that involves more than just taking a Zerg Strategy. I can understand relocating to a newly colonized planet, but again they want to have less ZERG strategy and instead more playing with your intellect/planning.
Last edited by Borzol on Thu May 31, 2012 3:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ForceUser
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by ForceUser » Thu May 31, 2012 3:33 pm

Styx wrote:You could require a communication tech to change orders mid mission, but its perfectly reasonable to do it. As Unthinking_pain said, the strategy is in the fleet composition. A multi-purpose fleet needs to have colonisers, construction ships, supply ships, fighting ships and CNC. Jack of all trades, master of none. If you set out to just survey, you'll take supply ships, fast ships, appropriate admiral etc.


Funny I though we already covered the whole "not going back to sots1" since that is exactly what you are suggesting here...
Perspective Man: Much like common sense, it's so rare it's a gorram superpower.
Agent.nihilist wrote:Ooo! Whats the gesture for ramming!?
Korgan wrote:probably a pelvic thrust
Mecron wrote:oy that is wrong at so many levels...well done! :P

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 3:41 pm

ForceUser wrote:- No freezing is perfect.
- Theres always the chance of DIEING when waking up. Lets do that multiple times because we MIGHT find a habitable planet.
- Friends/family of the frozen people will have aged more, people will see their children and grandchildren die before them. Sounds like fun.
- Sounds like a good idea to get frozen for an indefinite time with the guys in charge saying, meh we might get a planet but if not, could be another, oh, 5 years, maybe more *shrug*


Yup, it's a risk. Like going to live on a completely uninhabited planet with a Climate Hazard of -500. Actually, the cryogenic suspension part is probably a lot less of a risk than that. Or the lore could easily be written to say that, anyway.


No need for facepalms.

You are form the Internet aren't you? have you even read any of the posts on the mission system at all? You are doing this just to be obstinate. Nice.


Of course I've read some. Are you saying that YOUR statement is actually what Kerberos has said? Can you show where?

Yes fantastic you got ideas, I love that about kerberos, they love people having ideas and even use them, regularly. Heck they even made a forum SPECIFICALLY for that, isn't that just amazing?

If you are serious about an idea and really want to help make the game better, post it in the suggestion forum. If you just want internet arguments, post your ideas in general by prefacing them with "current system sucks my idea is better"


First, I didn't say "current system sucks my idea is better". You're the one with invective and stridency who's pushing this into an internet argument instead of a discussion. Please stop.

Second, I'm here attempting to discuss this because I prefer to do that prior to offering up a concrete Suggestion. I'm even doing it in a Mission system discussion thread! Similar to how Mecron has already posted that people should be a bit careful to try to distinguish true Technical Support issues from "maybes" by discussing them first in other forums, I'm taking that tack with Suggestions. Moreover, I totally understand that I don't know all the lore and Kerberos posts as well as others who would read this. I welcome actual help in finding what Kerberos has said. Feel free to be helpful. Feel free to not expect me or anyone else to know all of it already, also.

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 3:48 pm

It might help if you reply Unthinking_Pain, you want to discuss the mission system where you can use it effectively then. Or how can I do X maneuver with the mission system. ASking to explain the mission system helps a lot before making a reply that should be in the suggestion forum. WE would all like to help you its just that when any player wants to make the movement system like SotS 1 for SotS 2, its tough to help because the reply already starts off with mis-understanding the system in sots 2.

So i recommend so we start on the right point of the conversation, you can ask us how to do the strategies you would normally do in SotS 1, using the SotS 2 system. This way you can learn how to use the system as effectively as you can use SotS 1 system.

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