Do you like the mission system?

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Styx
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 3:54 pm

ForceUser wrote:
Styx wrote:You could require a communication tech to change orders mid mission, but its perfectly reasonable to do it. As Unthinking_pain said, the strategy is in the fleet composition. A multi-purpose fleet needs to have colonisers, construction ships, supply ships, fighting ships and CNC. Jack of all trades, master of none. If you set out to just survey, you'll take supply ships, fast ships, appropriate admiral etc.


Funny I though we already covered the whole "not going back to sots1" since that is exactly what you are suggesting here...

That's not what I'm suggesting at all.
What I'm saying is that its perfectly "realistic" to change plans midstream when the circumstances change. and that there is no good way you can anticipate every realistic combination of missions and compile it into a list you can choose from before leaving home.
The neat, logical solution is to allow missions to change.
e.g. send a gun-heavy fleet out to survey a world you suspect of being enemy held, when you arrive if its empty you survey it, if its lightly held you attack it, if its heavy you interdict it and wait for backup or run away. You could do that by adding multiple combo-missions and a whole if...then... rules system to the missions list or you can just let me choose a new mission from the list we already have when the fleet arrives.

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 3:55 pm

Borzol wrote:It might help if you reply Unthinking_Pain, you want to discuss the mission system where you can use it effectively then. Or how can I do X maneuver with the mission system. ASking to explain the mission system helps a lot before making a reply that should be in the suggestion forum. WE would all like to help you its just that when any player wants to make the movement system like SotS 1 for SotS 2, its tough to help because the reply already starts off with mis-understanding the system in sots 2.

So i recommend so we start on the right point of the conversation, you can ask us how to do the strategies you would normally do in SotS 1, using the SotS 2 system. This way you can learn how to use the system as effectively as you can use SotS 1 system.


Except I don't need help understanding the SOTS II system. I'm pretty comfortable with it at this point.

There are edges where the mission system really is too constraining imo. The current survey/colonize dynamic is one, since you can't even send a colonize mission until the survey is done. This leads, btw to interesting cases such as:

1) I'm at war with another race. I never got to survey their planets before the war, and after the war I can't get a survey mission done. (In fact, I think this is somewhat bugged, as even sending a Survey mission never seems to succeed. I'm beginning to suspect that any Colonize or Survey mission done at a system where I already have fleets on Invasion simply never complete)
2) I blow up one of their colonies. AT this point, I've been close enough to the planet to kill every enemy on it, and I *still* don't know what the climate hazard is.
3) I send a survey mission.
4) Some other race colonizes the planet before I get a shot at it.

Anyway, considering changes is reasonable since it's completely unlikely the mission system is all it could be yet.

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 4:04 pm

Unthinking_Pain wrote:
Borzol wrote:It might help if you reply Unthinking_Pain, you want to discuss the mission system where you can use it effectively then. Or how can I do X maneuver with the mission system. ASking to explain the mission system helps a lot before making a reply that should be in the suggestion forum. WE would all like to help you its just that when any player wants to make the movement system like SotS 1 for SotS 2, its tough to help because the reply already starts off with mis-understanding the system in sots 2.

So i recommend so we start on the right point of the conversation, you can ask us how to do the strategies you would normally do in SotS 1, using the SotS 2 system. This way you can learn how to use the system as effectively as you can use SotS 1 system.


Except I don't need help understanding the SOTS II system. I'm pretty comfortable with it at this point.

There are edges where the mission system really is too constraining imo. The current survey/colonize dynamic is one, since you can't even send a colonize mission until the survey is done. This leads, btw to interesting cases such as:

1) I'm at war with another race. I never got to survey their planets before the war, and after the war I can't get a survey mission done. (In fact, I think this is somewhat bugged, as even sending a Survey mission never seems to succeed. I'm beginning to suspect that any Colonize or Survey mission done at a system where I already have fleets on Invasion simply never complete)
2) I blow up one of their colonies. AT this point, I've been close enough to the planet to kill every enemy on it, and I *still* don't know what the climate hazard is.
3) I send a survey mission.
4) Some other race colonizes the planet before I get a shot at it.

Anyway, considering changes is reasonable since it's completely unlikely the mission system is all it could be yet.


Then we are at again the same problem, where the planning part of the stage is what your missing.

If you need to send in multiple patrol/invasion fleets at the beginning if you don't want to survey first. Then any fleets that come into the Star System, after you finish cleaning out the star system of enemies, you will be in a battle with. Also you never explained in that scenario of the enemy system and if it had enemy fleets in it, try and be more detailed next time.

1.Send in a survey fleet at the enemy planet,
2.Then send a invade fleet.
3 A turn or 2 after the star-system is cleaned out, send in patrol/inderiction fleet. after you finish invading the enemy, send in another, interdict/patrol fleets in as needed.
4. Send a construction and colonization fleet while its being protected. Send in a repair fleet as needed too.

MAybe you can't scan the system from another star system because planet is jamming your sensor network at empires star-system (that they would do in real warfare too, like using material to cover oneself from IR technology). Also I think it is a good idea to use specialized fleets more often and think in less of a multi-role fleets. If you need to send in multiple patrol/invasion fleets at the beginning if you don'tt want to survey first...

I think you want to play it to SotS 1, but just need how to use the combination of planning and the new supply logistical system? I laid out a simple plan, maybe it needs some editing, but it works ... and if you need to at any time you can cancel fleet orders...

Ruanek
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Ruanek » Thu May 31, 2012 4:15 pm

The problem is this

Borzol wrote:1.Send in a survey fleet at the enemy planet,
2.Then send a invade
3 A turn or 2 after send in patrol/inderiction fleet. after you finish invading the enemy, send in another, interdict/patrol fleets in as needed.
4. Send a construction and colonization fleet while its being protected. Send in a repair fleet as needed too.


really isn't that simple.

Because the survey fleet isn't the invasion fleet, it could be killed. Unless you're suggesting that they be sent simultaneously, which seems a bit... unnecessary. Instead of sending multiple fleets to the same system at the same time with multiple missions, does it not make any sense to allow fleets to have multiple missions? You'd be at a bit of a disadvantage, anyway, because you'd have to rely on one admiral's skills instead of potentially sending more, all with ideal skills for the task.

Maybe you're surveying a system fairly close to enemy space, but you aren't expecting trouble. So it's just a survey mission with appropriate supplies. But when you get there, you discover that it was colonized by the enemy, or has an enemy station. The enemy doesn't have a fleet there, but by the time you get another fleet they could potentially have one. So why can't the survey fleet say "Hey, this might be the best chance we get for a while. Let's scrap the survey and do a strike."?

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 4:16 pm

Ruanek wrote:The problem is this

Borzol wrote:1.Send in a survey fleet at the enemy planet,
2.Then send a invade
3 A turn or 2 after send in patrol/inderiction fleet. after you finish invading the enemy, send in another, interdict/patrol fleets in as needed.
4. Send a construction and colonization fleet while its being protected. Send in a repair fleet as needed too.


really isn't that simple.

Because the survey fleet isn't the invasion fleet, it could be killed. Unless you're suggesting that they be sent simultaneously, which seems a bit... unnecessary. Instead of sending multiple fleets to the same system at the same time with multiple missions, does it not make any sense to allow fleets to have multiple missions? You'd be at a bit of a disadvantage, anyway, because you'd have to rely on one admiral's skills instead of potentially sending more, all with ideal skills for the task.

Maybe you're surveying a system fairly close to enemy space, but you aren't expecting trouble. So it's just a survey mission with appropriate supplies. But when you get there, you discover that it was colonized by the enemy, or has an enemy station. The enemy doesn't have a fleet there, but by the time you get another fleet they could potentially have one. So why can't the survey fleet say "Hey, this might be the best chance we get for a while. Let's scrap the survey and do a strike."?


TRue I never got any more information about his example then he destroyed a (single) enemy colony (multi-planet star system?), so i was biasing off that, wish he was more detailed :/ . But the player could also send in multiple invasion/patrol fleets which hare more effective than a multi-role fleet for combat (again you can always cancel the mission before it completes). Also if a fleet is equiped to mostly survey, why would it be in a battle, why not have a second fleet to specialize in that? Being mult-irole in this case would cause more losses and be more useless. Illogically the player could've called a survey fleet, but outfitted for a battle fleet, thats the only reason i could see as such. Its like illogically equipping a m1a2 tusk with more space for people when its purpose is to cause "Destruction", or outfitting a tank division with APC's/IFV's (Mechanized Infantry).. the army uses specialization for this purpose with the divisions and more, to combat losses and be effective as whole. Just look at the people that take care of IEDs overseas in Iraq/Afghanistan, that IED division teaches the other army branches how to spot IEDs. Reference G4TV documentary "Bomb Patrol Afghanistan".

Never saw them do anything similar in the show with the quote noted below...

Styx wrote:Here are your orders admiral;
...
What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. ...


and I am happy for that, that they take their time and plan with the rules of war, and use each others specializations (including the technology each division uses) effectively, for a single purpose/Mission clearing roads of IEDs.
Last edited by Borzol on Thu May 31, 2012 5:08 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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Adamfostas
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Adamfostas » Thu May 31, 2012 4:21 pm

Unthinking_Pain wrote:Except I don't need help understanding the SOTS II system. I'm pretty comfortable with it at this point.

There are edges where the mission system really is too constraining imo. The current survey/colonize dynamic is one, since you can't even send a colonize mission until the survey is done. This leads, btw to interesting cases such as:

1) I'm at war with another race. I never got to survey their planets before the war, and after the war I can't get a survey mission done. (In fact, I think this is somewhat bugged, as even sending a Survey mission never seems to succeed. I'm beginning to suspect that any Colonize or Survey mission done at a system where I already have fleets on Invasion simply never complete)
2) I blow up one of their colonies. AT this point, I've been close enough to the planet to kill every enemy on it, and I *still* don't know what the climate hazard is.
3) I send a survey mission.
4) Some other race colonizes the planet before I get a shot at it.

Anyway, considering changes is reasonable since it's completely unlikely the mission system is all it could be yet.

To Mr Pain, and everyone else who's upset about the mission system.

You're not thinking about it the right way.

Initially, I reacted just as you did. I thought I'd bought a sequel to SOTS, and that it was going to have a few new features but be broadly the same game. However, it turns out that I've bought World War 2 IN SPACE. I know, this was a surprise to me too; I thought I'd bought a game about fighting psychic space dolphins from beyond the moon, but apparently I was wrong. That's why all the freedom you had to do what you wanted with your fleets in SOTS 1 has been taken away. Because of World War 2. Blame Hitler.

I don't yet have any idea whether I'll like World War 2 IN SPACE, because it's not finished. However, I can tell that it's going to involve substantially more thought beyond the tanker-and-scanner combos I used to send to the ends of the universe. It's unclear as yet whether I'm going to find it too grognardy to be fun - certainly the references to ensuring that patrol fleets are carefully timed to ensure there's a lack of coverage over a colony make me worry that I'm going to need to crank up Excel to keep track of everything - but I am willing to wait until then.

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marshb
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by marshb » Thu May 31, 2012 4:26 pm

Styx says:
Here are your orders admiral;
"Take these colonists, piss off and find somewhere for them to live, they're cluttering up the place. When you find somewhere for them, you might as well stay there."

What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. You need to expand, you dont know of any good planets, and you dont have time to survey half a dozen worlds looking for the best option. So you send the fleet out from planet to planet and when they see a likely candidate, they stop.

I would like to see a modern citation demonstrating this. You can't use anything prior to the 20th century because for 99.99% of of sailing history, "going to sea" meant slavery/indentured servitude. Even "commercial" merchantmen were no better than slaves until the Seaman's Act of 1915. Unless your suggesting that in the future, society has deteriorated so badly were back to sots1 movement again. ;) Hmmm, I'll have to check the Lore again. :P

PS: This is partly in jest but you can see the implications, yes? This demonstrate the difference between what a "Gamer" would do and what a "Real World" politician would have to "deal" with, and what Kerberos is trying to get Players to understand when they make their gameplay decisions. Sots is a very educational game! :D
Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.

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Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 5:18 pm

Then we are at again the same problem, where the planning part of the stage is what your missing.


If you need to send in multiple patrol/invasion fleets at the beginning if you don't want to survey first. Then any fleets that come into the Star System, after you finish cleaning out the star system of enemies, you will be in a battle with. Also you never explained in that scenario of the enemy system and if it had enemy fleets in it, try and be more detailed next time.

1.Send in a survey fleet at the enemy planet,


Try it. If you're at war, the Survey fleet will have combat every round there's at least one colonized planet. In my experience so far, the Survey mission never finishes. Even after the colony is destroyed, that survey mission doesn't finish. I have to send another one. In fact, in my experience so far, I have to manually Stop mission on any Invading fleet I have in the system before a Survey or Colonize mission will actually run to completion. I'm going to try a bit more fiddling to see if I can nail down what's happening, but welcome people's actual game experience.

Rest of what you said did not appear to address what I was specifically talking about, so I left it out.

Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 5:20 pm

Unthinking_Pain wrote:
Then we are at again the same problem, where the planning part of the stage is what your missing.


If you need to send in multiple patrol/invasion fleets at the beginning if you don't want to survey first. Then any fleets that come into the Star System, after you finish cleaning out the star system of enemies, you will be in a battle with. Also you never explained in that scenario of the enemy system and if it had enemy fleets in it, try and be more detailed next time.

1.Send in a survey fleet at the enemy planet,


Try it. If you're at war, the Survey fleet will have combat every round there's at least one colonized planet. In my experience so far, the Survey mission never finishes. Even after the colony is destroyed, that survey mission doesn't finish. I have to send another one. In fact, in my experience so far, I have to manually Stop mission on any Invading fleet I have in the system before a Survey or Colonize mission will actually run to completion. I'm going to try a bit more fiddling to see if I can nail down what's happening, but welcome people's actual game experience.

Rest of what you said did not appear to address what I was specifically talking about, so I left it out.


Unthinking_Pain wrote:Except I don't need help understanding the SOTS II system. I'm pretty comfortable with it at this point.

There are edges where the mission system really is too constraining imo. The current survey/colonize dynamic is one, since you can't even send a colonize mission until the survey is done. This leads, btw to interesting cases such as:

1) I'm at war with another race. I never got to survey their planets before the war, and after the war I can't get a survey mission done. (In fact, I think this is somewhat bugged, as even sending a Survey mission never seems to succeed. I'm beginning to suspect that any Colonize or Survey mission done at a system where I already have fleets on Invasion simply never complete)
2) I blow up one of their colonies. AT this point, I've been close enough to the planet to kill every enemy on it, and I *still* don't know what the climate hazard is.
3) I send a survey mission.
4) Some other race colonizes the planet before I get a shot at it.

Anyway, considering changes is reasonable since it's completely unlikely the mission system is all it could be yet.


Questions...
-so one colonizable planet in the star system?

Responses...
The survey thing sounds like a bug, as you cleared the star system out of hostiles.
Send 2 fleets one invasion and 1 patrol? If you get beaten back, send 2 invasion fleets next time, with patrol, as battles last in rounds and you get to pick your fleets in battle. After invasion is done, you can send survey fleet and interdiction fleet. I do agree the mission system could be improved, but as long as it doesn't start heading toward SotS 1 system and instead keeps it to SotS 2 mechanics..

Right here
Last edited by Borzol on Thu May 31, 2012 5:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Unthinking_Pain
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Unthinking_Pain » Thu May 31, 2012 5:25 pm

Borzol wrote:TRue I never got any more information about his example then he destroyed a (single) enemy colony (multi-planet star system?), so i was biasing off that, wish he was more detailed :/ . But the player could also send in multiple invasion/patrol fleets which hare more effective than a multi-role fleet for combat (again you can always cancel the mission before it completes). Also if a fleet is equiped to mostly survey, why would it be in a battle, why not have a second fleet to specialize in that?


The only specialization a fleet can do to Survey is to have a Pathfinder admiral. Otherwise, it fights just like it's ships are loaded out in the design screen.

To Mr Pain, and everyone else who's upset about the mission system.


I'm not actually upset, and prefer the overall paradigm. I am discussing the implementation and design choices.

The discussion I'm adding is about how much and what kind of flexibility should Kerberos add to the mission system. They've already been quite clear that they're going to add some.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Thu May 31, 2012 5:28 pm

No surveying with enemy assets in a system. Confirmed mechanic.

Once the system is bereft of enemies, It can be Surveyed. Though, technically there is nothing stopping your survey fleet from doing the wiping out. Its colonizer ships may be empty, but everyone brought bullets.

It would be cool if you could change a patrol into a survey, but that is something that may be in the scope of secondary missions. We will just have to wait and see.
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Borzol
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Borzol » Thu May 31, 2012 5:32 pm

Agent.nihilist wrote:No surveying with enemy assets in a system. Confirmed mechanic.


thanks i had a brain fart... :)

Styx
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 7:18 pm

marshb wrote:Styx says:
Here are your orders admiral;
"Take these colonists, piss off and find somewhere for them to live, they're cluttering up the place. When you find somewhere for them, you might as well stay there."

What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. You need to expand, you dont know of any good planets, and you dont have time to survey half a dozen worlds looking for the best option. So you send the fleet out from planet to planet and when they see a likely candidate, they stop.

I would like to see a modern citation demonstrating this. You can't use anything prior to the 20th century because for 99.99% of of sailing history, "going to sea" meant slavery/indentured servitude. Even "commercial" merchantmen were no better than slaves until the Seaman's Act of 1915. Unless your suggesting that in the future, society has deteriorated so badly were back to sots1 movement again. ;) Hmmm, I'll have to check the Lore again. :P

PS: This is partly in jest but you can see the implications, yes? This demonstrate the difference between what a "Gamer" would do and what a "Real World" politician would have to "deal" with, and what Kerberos is trying to get Players to understand when they make their gameplay decisions. Sots is a very educational game! :D


Well obviously I cant cite a 20th centruy example. There wasnt enough unexplored territory and colonialism left in the 20th century.
But practically any colonial expansion in history has some level of similarity. We sent our criminals to Australia without knowing (or caring) if there was a real viable colony location. We just knew there was a bunch of land over there somewhere with nothing on it but desert and aborgines.
Most of the early colonisation of north america was the same. We knew there was land there, we assumed some of it was livable, people got on boats and went with no realistic expectation of coming back.
And how do you think colonisation of other worlds will eventually be done centuries from now? Really? By actually visiting alpha centauri in person, coming all the way back to say it was nice and only then sending colonists? Bollocks. They'll find a rock through a telescope with a good chance of a breathable atmosphere and start loading the ships with people who desperately want off of a badly overcrowded Earth.

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marshb
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by marshb » Thu May 31, 2012 7:35 pm

Styx says:
Well obviously I cant cite a 20th centruy example. There wasnt enough unexplored territory and colonialism left in the 20th century.
But practically any colonial expansion in history has some level of similarity. We sent our criminals to Australia without knowing (or caring) if there was a real viable colony location. We just knew there was a bunch of land over there somewhere with nothing on it but desert and aborgines.
Most of the early colonisation of north america was the same. We knew there was land there, we assumed some of it was livable, people got on boats and went with no realistic expectation of coming back.
And how do you think colonisation of other worlds will eventually be done centuries from now? Really? By actually visiting alpha centauri in person, coming all the way back to say it was nice and only then sending colonists? Bollocks. They'll find a rock through a telescope with a good chance of a breathable atmosphere and start loading the ships with people who desperately want off of a badly overcrowded Earth.

First I'm glad you grokked everything i was alluding to, (wasn't so sure of it myself :P ). Concerning the italicized part of your post, with the exception of the Zuul, I don't see the other empires packing up colonists without some form of insurances that there will be something at the end of the trip. Me thinks they will wait until they get word back that the coast is clear, then head out long before the survey fleet returns. Again I think kerberos is making concessions to real world considerations where decision making is concerned.

Edit: In sots1 there were fewer concessions to real world implications and fleets could act like bots for the most part. Sots2 seems like an evolution towards "Real" decision making and players be willing to accept the consequences of those same decisions.
Last edited by marshb on Thu May 31, 2012 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Thu May 31, 2012 7:40 pm

Styx wrote:
marshb wrote:Styx says:
Here are your orders admiral;
"Take these colonists, piss off and find somewhere for them to live, they're cluttering up the place. When you find somewhere for them, you might as well stay there."

What's wrong with that? Bugger moral ramifications, it's a perfectly reasonable situation to be in. You need to expand, you dont know of any good planets, and you dont have time to survey half a dozen worlds looking for the best option. So you send the fleet out from planet to planet and when they see a likely candidate, they stop.

I would like to see a modern citation demonstrating this. You can't use anything prior to the 20th century because for 99.99% of of sailing history, "going to sea" meant slavery/indentured servitude. Even "commercial" merchantmen were no better than slaves until the Seaman's Act of 1915. Unless your suggesting that in the future, society has deteriorated so badly were back to sots1 movement again. ;) Hmmm, I'll have to check the Lore again. :P

PS: This is partly in jest but you can see the implications, yes? This demonstrate the difference between what a "Gamer" would do and what a "Real World" politician would have to "deal" with, and what Kerberos is trying to get Players to understand when they make their gameplay decisions. Sots is a very educational game! :D


Well obviously I cant cite a 20th centruy example. There wasnt enough unexplored territory and colonialism left in the 20th century.
But practically any colonial expansion in history has some level of similarity. We sent our criminals to Australia without knowing (or caring) if there was a real viable colony location. We just knew there was a bunch of land over there somewhere with nothing on it but desert and aborgines.
Most of the early colonisation of north america was the same. We knew there was land there, we assumed some of it was livable, people got on boats and went with no realistic expectation of coming back.
And how do you think colonisation of other worlds will eventually be done centuries from now? Really? By actually visiting alpha centauri in person, coming all the way back to say it was nice and only then sending colonists? Bollocks. They'll find a rock through a telescope with a good chance of a breathable atmosphere and start loading the ships with people who desperately want off of a badly overcrowded Earth.

But we are talking about colonial expansion, that was Sots I era.

We are talking about an empire that has already successfully Colonized two nearby planets, anyone wanting to leave the homeworld can go to one of the developing colonies.
Its also a world of FTL travel and communications. You are talking about taking people, cutting them off from friends and family, and putting their lives on hold for YEARs simply because you couldn't use 1 of several exploration fleets that(should be) are designed to explore new systems and brave the dangers of space with minimal loses.
Not to mention you don't know the Climate, so you can't bring the proper gear, supply needs are going to be different, food requirements will change based on distance to the seed colony... etc.
You are also talking about a fleet that is typically worth several years of an early game empires funds. You really going to send out fragile colony ships into a system that might have space bees? or a dozen missile platforms that think you are asteroids?
Yea you can technically do this, but don't expect people that aren;t being order to go to ride along on the crazy train.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

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Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

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