Do you like the mission system?

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Thu May 31, 2012 7:47 pm

actually adam...there were more ww2 and ww1 thoughts in prime...but hey, thanks for playing anyway ;)

Styx
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 7:48 pm

marshb wrote:with the exception of the Zuul, I don't see the other empires packing up colonists without some form of insurances that there will be something at the end of the trip. Me thinks they will wait until they get word back that the coast is clear, then head out long before the survey fleet returns. Again I think kerberos is making concessions to real world considerations where decision making is concerned.

Well I'm not saying they should be sent out beyond the capacity of the ships to come back if you really dont find a viable planet, but it's quite reasonable to send them out knowing they'll probably find one.
And I wasnt talking about the game there. That's actually whats likely to happen when we have the technology level to get to another planet. There'll be no shortage of volunteers.

Agent.nihilist wrote:You are also talking about a fleet that is typically worth several years of an early game empires funds. You really going to send out fragile colony ships into a system that might have space bees? or a dozen missile platforms that think you are asteroids?
Yea you can technically do this, but don't expect people that aren;t being order to go to ride along on the crazy train.

No, what I'd actually be likely to do is send out a survey fleet and then send the colony ships out just 1-2 turns behind them using a "patrol" mission. If the target planet is no good, I'd send the survey fleet on to the next and divert the colony ships midstream to follow. then repeat until I either found a good candidate or ran out of endurance and had to come back.
[edit], or I'd send out multiple survey missions at once, but only one colony fleet towards the middle of the group of systems. Then the colony fleet would be closer to whichever system came back looking best so I could change its mission to colonise with less of a delay.

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Thu May 31, 2012 8:42 pm

Styx wrote:Well I'm not saying they should be sent out beyond the capacity of the ships to come back if you really dont find a viable planet, but it's quite reasonable to send them out knowing they'll probably find one.
And I wasnt talking about the game there. That's actually whats likely to happen when we have the technology level to get to another planet. There'll be no shortage of volunteers.

Agent.nihilist wrote:You are also talking about a fleet that is typically worth several years of an early game empires funds. You really going to send out fragile colony ships into a system that might have space bees? or a dozen missile platforms that think you are asteroids?
Yea you can technically do this, but don't expect people that aren;t being order to go to ride along on the crazy train.

No, what I'd actually be likely to do is send out a survey fleet and then send the colony ships out just 1-2 turns behind them using a "patrol" mission. If the target planet is no good, I'd send the survey fleet on to the next and divert the colony ships midstream to follow. then repeat until I either found a good candidate or ran out of endurance and had to come back.
[edit], or I'd send out multiple survey missions at once, but only one colony fleet towards the middle of the group of systems. Then the colony fleet would be closer to whichever system came back looking best so I could change its mission to colonise with less of a delay.


Terraforming efforts aren't one size fits all you know, even though it may seem like that from the players perspective. They need to take into account what type of equipment to bring, what type of plants to bring, food amounts, EV gear. They don't know how harsh the climate is, is there acid rain, how harsh the winters are, volcanic activity, geological activity.

The survey find out all these things, and the colonizer fleet needs to know what to bring. You are simply not going to be able to send out a colonization effort without knowing what you are getting into.
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Jorgen_CAB » Thu May 31, 2012 8:57 pm

Styx wrote:Well obviously I cant cite a 20th centruy example. There wasnt enough unexplored territory and colonialism left in the 20th century.
But practically any colonial expansion in history has some level of similarity. We sent our criminals to Australia without knowing (or caring) if there was a real viable colony location. We just knew there was a bunch of land over there somewhere with nothing on it but desert and aborgines.
Most of the early colonisation of north america was the same. We knew there was land there, we assumed some of it was livable, people got on boats and went with no realistic expectation of coming back.
And how do you think colonisation of other worlds will eventually be done centuries from now? Really? By actually visiting alpha centauri in person, coming all the way back to say it was nice and only then sending colonists? Bollocks. They'll find a rock through a telescope with a good chance of a breathable atmosphere and start loading the ships with people who desperately want off of a badly overcrowded Earth.


In my opinion this is flawed logic... Australia had been surveyed before colonists where sent there... sure not all the land was known and the colonists had to explore the land and make due.

I don't see how this is much dissimilar to survey fleets, except survey fleets in SotS2 are much more sophisticated than early earth history survey expeditions. You survey a system and map most of the planets surface, climate and so forth. It still falls on the colonists to actually explore and live the hard life on these planets, much the same way that the criminals did in Australia. I really don't see it any other way.

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Heart of Storm » Thu May 31, 2012 9:45 pm

Styx wrote: Well I'm not saying they should be sent out beyond the capacity of the ships to come back if you really dont find a viable planet, but it's quite reasonable to send them out knowing they'll probably find one.
And I wasnt talking about the game there. That's actually whats likely to happen when we have the technology level to get to another planet. There'll be no shortage of volunteers.


Actually I'd think under those terms, yes, there would be rather a shortage of volunteers.

I can imagine the posters now.

WANTED: Brave frontier souls to be placed into suspended animation and flown around deep space for 20 years, come back to Earth when the ship runs out of fuel to find your parents dead, your children older then you are and that society no longer has a place for you*

*DISCLAIMER unless we get lucky and actually find a rock worth landing on, and you don't get eaten by spacebees

Styx wrote:No, what I'd actually be likely to do is send out a survey fleet and then send the colony ships out just 1-2 turns behind them using a "patrol" mission. If the target planet is no good, I'd send the survey fleet on to the next and divert the colony ships midstream to follow. then repeat until I either found a good candidate or ran out of endurance and had to come back.
[edit], or I'd send out multiple survey missions at once, but only one colony fleet towards the middle of the group of systems. Then the colony fleet would be closer to whichever system came back looking best so I could change its mission to colonise with less of a delay.


I still fail to see the benefit in this, any time gained (what, 1 or 2 turns?) by having your colony fleets following survey fleets will be instantly lost the second you encounter a menace and have to abort the colony mission.

Same with the second, seems likely that will only work in specific circumstances and again not save you a great many turns in the long run.

Seems like a lot of work and effort to code something that provides only a marginal advantage to players who absolutely *must* squeeze every scrap of efficiency, all the time, frankly I'd rather the Devs time was taken up doing stuff that benefitted everyone, like coding extra 'wait, they can DO that?' moments into the AI's thinking

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Thu May 31, 2012 10:30 pm

Jorgen_CAB wrote:In my opinion this is flawed logic... Australia had been surveyed before colonists where sent there... sure not all the land was known and the colonists had to explore the land and make due.

I don't see how this is much dissimilar to survey fleets, except survey fleets in SotS2 are much more sophisticated than early earth history survey expeditions. You survey a system and map most of the planets surface, climate and so forth. It still falls on the colonists to actually explore and live the hard life on these planets, much the same way that the criminals did in Australia. I really don't see it any other way.

Australia wasnt surveyed, not seriously. It had been found and presumably someone had checked that it was empty first (local tribes with boomerangs dont count) but they had no specific colony location in mind, they sailed around til they found a river mouth on the assumption that they'd have fresh water. With navigation what it was at the time they were lucky to find the continent at all, did you know the first expedition out that way discovered new zealand... and completely failed to notice australia?

Heart of Storm wrote:
Styx wrote: Well I'm not saying they should be sent out beyond the capacity of the ships to come back if you really dont find a viable planet, but it's quite reasonable to send them out knowing they'll probably find one.
And I wasnt talking about the game there. That's actually whats likely to happen when we have the technology level to get to another planet. There'll be no shortage of volunteers.


Actually I'd think under those terms, yes, there would be rather a shortage of volunteers.

I can imagine the posters now.

How's this for an alternative?
"Tired of living on a planet with over 12 billion people? Had enough of eating processed fungus for every meal? Want to find out what fresh air smells like? Then sign up for a colony ship! Trade in this dump for paradise in space!"

Heart of Storm wrote:
Styx wrote:No, what I'd actually be likely to do is send out a survey fleet and then send the colony ships out just 1-2 turns behind them using a "patrol" mission. If the target planet is no good, I'd send the survey fleet on to the next and divert the colony ships midstream to follow. then repeat until I either found a good candidate or ran out of endurance and had to come back.
[edit], or I'd send out multiple survey missions at once, but only one colony fleet towards the middle of the group of systems. Then the colony fleet would be closer to whichever system came back looking best so I could change its mission to colonise with less of a delay.


I still fail to see the benefit in this, any time gained (what, 1 or 2 turns?) by having your colony fleets following survey fleets will be instantly lost the second you encounter a menace and have to abort the colony mission.

Same with the second, seems likely that will only work in specific circumstances and again not save you a great many turns in the long run.

Those few turns could be really important if you're competing with another empire for border territory. But really survey/colonise is just an example of a situation where switching missions is valid, useful and logical. It doesnt take a genius to think of more;
A fleet based on planet A is interdicting planet B when I see an attack on its way to planet C. I want to order the fleet to go directly to C and defend, not cancel -> go back to A -> go to C -> arrive too late.
Exploring border territory along a broad front, I want a fleet that can go from its base at one end of the empire along the border surveying each system as it goes, possibly stopping to invade or interdict if I find an enemy I can take, and ultimately ending with a rebase at the other end of the empire.

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Thu May 31, 2012 10:37 pm

I want a poooooony!

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by vaccum_pony » Thu May 31, 2012 10:45 pm

Yes?
- - - -

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Thu May 31, 2012 10:50 pm

Styx wrote:Australia wasnt surveyed, not seriously. It had been found and presumably someone had checked that it was empty first (local tribes with boomerangs dont count) but they had no specific colony location in mind, they sailed around til they found a river mouth on the assumption that they'd have fresh water. With navigation what it was at the time they were lucky to find the continent at all, did you know the first expedition out that way discovered new zealand... and completely failed to notice australia?

Right first expedition - Hey look land! Thats a survey, they didn't bring colonists before they had even found anything.
Styx wrote:
How's this for an alternative?
"Tired of living on a planet with over 12 billion people? Had enough of eating processed fungus for every meal? Want to find out what fresh air smells like? Then sign up for a colony ship! Trade in this dump for paradise in space!"

At Game start there are 2 other Colonies to migrate to.

Styx wrote:
Those few turns could be really important if you're competing with another empire for border territory. But really survey/colonise is just an example of a situation where switching missions is valid, useful and logical. It doesnt take a genius to think of more;
A fleet based on planet A is interdicting planet B when I see an attack on its way to planet C. I want to order the fleet to go directly to C and defend, not cancel -> go back to A -> go to C -> arrive too late.
Exploring border territory along a broad front, I want a fleet that can go from its base at one end of the empire along the border surveying each system as it goes, possibly stopping to invade or interdict if I find an enemy I can take, and ultimately ending with a rebase at the other end of the empire.

Again, you are ignoring carrying hundreds of colonists on a several year mission to a place that they have no idea of what dangers are there, what equipment is needed, or hell even if there is a place capable of supporting life at all.
Last edited by Agent.nihilist on Thu May 31, 2012 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Panthera Leo » Thu May 31, 2012 10:54 pm

Mecron wrote:I want a poooooony!


(Feeling the love?)

Not pony with a gold leaf settle, and carry bags of very rare gems? Followed by a train of adoring fans ready to follow your every whim? No answer to life, the universe, and everything?

Good thing your on the development side, you don't want enough to be purely a fan. :P

--------

Where exactly is updating fleet order in flight on the 'to-do' list? The next patch? Sometime three or four patches down the road? Sometime before the heat death of the universe?
Last edited by Panthera Leo on Thu May 31, 2012 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No, there is no pleasing me, Why would you think there is? :P I'm mean, and always wrong...I mean right! :)

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Thu May 31, 2012 11:00 pm

Panthera Leo wrote:
Mecron wrote:I want a poooooony!


(Feeling the love?)

Not pony with a gold leaf settle, and carry bags of very rare gems? Followed by a train of adoring fans ready to follow your every whim? No answer to life, the universe, and everything?

Good think your on the development side, you don't want enough to be purely a fan. :P

--------

Where exactly is updating fleet order in flight on the 'to-do' list? The next patch? Sometime three or four patches down the road? Sometime before the heat death of the universe?

42 Ponies?
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Tarrak » Thu May 31, 2012 11:18 pm

Agent.nihilist wrote:
Styx wrote:Australia wasnt surveyed, not seriously. It had been found and presumably someone had checked that it was empty first (local tribes with boomerangs dont count) but they had no specific colony location in mind, they sailed around til they found a river mouth on the assumption that they'd have fresh water. With navigation what it was at the time they were lucky to find the continent at all, did you know the first expedition out that way discovered new zealand... and completely failed to notice australia?

Right first expedition - Hey look land! Thats a survey, they didn't bring colonists before they had even found anything.

Just to chime in on the Survey Australia business.

We are talking Earth. Anywhere there are freshwater, plants and land is a pretty safe bet at being somewhat viable. You can't equate that with going out into space and hopefully finding a planet that might or might not have a biosphere that isn't deadly, or at least dangerous, to your lifetype. And that only works if said planet is within the habitable range of the race (and not that isn't the green zone of CH, it is much much lower than that). On Earth we are compatible... always. Yes, sometimes we walk into nasty diseases because of a lack of exposure (well maybe not so much anymore), but we can breathe the air, drink the water and generally eat the life (flora and fauna both). Australia didn't need a full survey in SotS II terms. It merely needed to be made sure to contain these three basic requirements, and the expedition certainly made sure of that. Besides, in terms of colonies, the first colony wa planted in the very bay that was 'surveyed'. So I guess Australia was 'surveyed' enough, being that the given bay counts as system so to speak.
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by wimpb » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:51 am

Heart of Storm wrote:
wimpb wrote: First off, you MUST allow orders to be given to fleets who are on a mission. Unless you also produce great AI where admirals are able to make intelligent human-level decisions on their own, this is a necessary feature. Obviously this would be subject to limitations - human fleets cannot be given orders in nodespace. But there absolutely must be some way of giving orders to a fleet after it goes on a mission. Not being able to modify missions makes the fleet system incredibly inflexible and means that players have to micro far more fleets to achieve the same things.


Gonna need an example here, of why this is *needed* - I can see this opening the door to players going back to SotS1 tactics of survey fleets with 'just in case' colonisers. - surveying a system then changing the mission to colonise when they discover an acceptable planet, which is the sort of thing that the mission system is meant to stop.

wimpb wrote:Admirals shouldn't all be admirals. They should start a lower rank, and as they do more missions their rank will increase. This wouldn't have any real gameplay difference, it's just a flavor/UI thing. You'll be able to tell who your elite commanders are by quickly glancing at their rank. The admiral card should be a little more like a Total War style card, where it lists the traits (hover over the trait for more detail), or you can just see how many stars they have (combat experience), planets (colony experience), spanners (construction experience) for a super quick summary.


Again, forgetting the exercise in semantics, but my understanding is that Admirals *do* gain traits as time goes on, theres enough variance in admirals already (attributes, reaction rating, yada yada) without making it more complex. Although some tweaks to the way the information is provided is something we can both agree on


It's good to hear that some of my concerns aren't issues.

I didn't have colonizing in mind when it came to mission flexibility, though I still don't see why giving players the flexibility is a bad thing. I'm not bothered by reasons of story or "realism". It is perfectly reasonable to me that there are abstractions in a game. It could be argued that as an abstraction the survey/colony fleet surveys a system, and when they find a suitable planet they call in the colonizer elements of the fleet from their base to the system. I don't think that having a combined survey/colony fleet is something that players should be discouraged from doing. Incidentally, I think you could find plenty of volunteers for long term exploration/colonizing missions, just like you can find plenty of volunteers for suicide missions.

In any case, colonizing wasn't what I had in mind, but rather flexibility in military fleet movement. I send a fleet to patrol system X, but system Y comes under attack. I want to send my fleet directly from system X to system Y, but I can't - they must first be recalled to their base before being sent off to system Y - I'm assuming that's how things work right now. The problem is that players will feel heavily constrained by an arbitrary mission system. It goes for other stuff as well - it isn't fun when the game tells you that a construction fleet needs to fly back to base after completing a mission rather than the player being able to say "hey, while you're there build another station".

It basically boils down to the fact that it sucks when a game is frustrating and players can't do things that seem reasonable to them.

The admiral suggestions was purely presentation. Basically just having the admiral card with some stars on it would tell you the admiral is good at combat, and so on.

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Jorgen_CAB » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:28 am

Styx wrote:
Jorgen_CAB wrote:In my opinion this is flawed logic... Australia had been surveyed before colonists where sent there... sure not all the land was known and the colonists had to explore the land and make due.

I don't see how this is much dissimilar to survey fleets, except survey fleets in SotS2 are much more sophisticated than early earth history survey expeditions. You survey a system and map most of the planets surface, climate and so forth. It still falls on the colonists to actually explore and live the hard life on these planets, much the same way that the criminals did in Australia. I really don't see it any other way.

Australia wasnt surveyed, not seriously. It had been found and presumably someone had checked that it was empty first (local tribes with boomerangs dont count) but they had no specific colony location in mind, they sailed around til they found a river mouth on the assumption that they'd have fresh water. With navigation what it was at the time they were lucky to find the continent at all, did you know the first expedition out that way discovered new zealand... and completely failed to notice australia?


Humm... you are talking lots of BS in my opinion. First they sent several explorations to Australia (from many European nations). They got back home and told about this new land which they even mapped (coastlines). Later (much later) there were decisions to send colonists there based information brought by the explorers. That IS NOT the same thing as sending in a colony fleet to survey and start colonizing directly. That is sending out explorers to explore and then based on that information they send out colonists to start new settlements.

You obviously don't even know enough about your own history... Australian east and southern coastlines where mapped BEFORE colonists arrived. I believe the first real settlements were sent in 1788 and explorers had been mapping the place since 1623 (discovered in 1606)?!?


You just seem to make things up as you go to fit your already narrow mindset... just give it up and go read some real books on the matter!

Oh... and by the way... New Zealand was discovered in 1642, so that is AFTER Australia was discovered in 1606...

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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Styx » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:43 am

Hmmm... seems I've misremembered something somewhere. A bit of investigation tells me it was Cook that managed to sail past Australia without noticing it in 1768 on his way to tahiti, then managed to find new zealand instead which he thought was Terras Australis which the portugese and spanish had discovered and mapped a piece of the coast of but never bothered with.

The point I was trying to make however was about the detail involved in the planning over what was then an enormous distance. Cook found Botany Bay by just stopping at a convenient river mouth to load fresh water. He got home and said it looked habitable and they sent convicts. There was no "survey". Cook wasnt equipped to map great swathes of land, or to check what the soil was like and so on. The level of exploration detail involved was, in my opinion, more analagous to knowing that there's a planet over there than to a detailed feasibility study of colonisation.

Oh... and by the way... you're an arse.

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