Do you like the mission system?

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Alganhar
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Alganhar » Tue May 29, 2012 7:05 pm

In my opinion, the Mission system makes Deep Space Construction one of the most valuable research options in the game.

Used right its incredibly powerful, allowing you to place Naval bases at chokepoints and forward systems without requiring you to colonise the system. There is no requirement whatsoever to take territory in order to expand once you have deepspace construction. In fact, I would go so far as to say, once you can get it, it is an absolute MUST for every race, with the possible exception of Hivers, and useful even for them. Hell, sometimes NOT taking territory and only deploying forward bases is an advantage, as it can form a buffer between you and the enemy, he now requires much more supply to reach you, while you have forward bases so can reach him with impunity...

Its much more fun planning what fleets you are going to need to achieve an objective, where you are going to have to base from to achieve that objective, and then achieving it in SotS ][ than it ever was in Prime, simply because its more challenging, it requires more thought and once you pull it off it has a much greater feeling of accomplishment.

Played a game of Prime the other day for old times sake, and it just did not feel as challenging.

Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 7:48 pm

You keep telling me I can do things, which I can not.
Ok, let's take this step by step.
What the current system is:
Right click, build a station as far as your supply limit/reach goes, repeat process until you are near enemy territory (about one system away from their lines, to be somewhat safe)
From that base, you will only be able to strike as far as the supply limit/reach goes, you can attack A, B and C, but not D, E and F, at least not until you have cleared A, B and C

Move Mission:
Put in a supply gathering and processing ship. (Agent, this is also an answer to you, so pay attention)
This ship will have a "mine resources" kind of mission or attribute that take x number of turn(s).
Now right click at some system near A, select your fleet and go there.

(supply gathering and processing ship will automatically mine and process resources for food for the crew and spare parts... etc... during the journey, this will remove resources from planets/asteroids it's passing, this will, however be limited, and at some point it will reach that limit, forcing the ship to stand still for a large number of turns to refill the entire fleet. And crew death is permanent, if the entire fleet is down to minimal capacity, it will be forced to retreat) (NOTE this tech, does not need to be something you start off with, it can be high-end)

Now once you are at some system near A, you can continue to move to A and then evade A's forces (using stealth and such) and continue on to D, even all the way to Z if you are skilled enough.
A move mission, will add LESS micromanagement. And still have the same mission system. It will add a more strategical depth, in my own opinion. (or perspective)

I also want to ask; Do you (general non-specific you) oppose this kind of move mission, and why?

I guess, that in order for me to get as close as I can, to what I want, I will be have to make a supply mod. This is something I'm going to work on. I'm basically going to increase all supply limits for supply ships, by something like 2x or 10x.

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hagop
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by hagop » Tue May 29, 2012 7:52 pm

I'll throw a vote in for disliking the new fleet/mission system. I vastly dislike how it slows the pace of the early game. The improvements it does provide just do not offset that for me.
"Soldiers Live and wonder why"

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DandyOne
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by DandyOne » Tue May 29, 2012 7:54 pm

There is one thing that you just can't do with the new mission system, and that's sending your fleet on a one way trip.
It is a perfectly legitimate strategy in desperate times to send a fleet on strike mission, with the knowledge that none of your ships will make it back.

You could do it in SotS Prime, where you practically doubled the strike distance because you didn't consider the fuel for the return trip.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Exitialis wrote:You keep telling me I can do things, which I can not.
Ok, let's take this step by step.
What the current system is:
Right click, build a station as far as your supply limit/reach goes, repeat process until you are near enemy territory (about one system away from their lines, to be somewhat safe)
From that base, you will only be able to strike as far as the supply limit/reach goes, you can attack A, B and C, but not D, E and F, at least not until you have cleared A, B and C

Right, That's nearly the entire point of having a supply system. Its also a natural consequence of playing in overly large systems, in normal games most other players are generally no more than one stations of range away.
Exitialis wrote:Move Mission:
Put in a supply gathering and processing ship. (Agent, this is also an answer to you, so pay attention)
This ship will have a "mine resources" kind of mission or attribute that take x number of turn(s).
Now right click at some system near A, select your fleet and go there.
I don't feel you understand what answering a question means, but I'll tell you its not making something up, posing another question in response or writing out new mission suggestion. I asked a direct question, the only response is a direct answer.
Exitialis wrote:(supply gathering and processing ship will automatically mine and process resources for food for the crew and spare parts... etc... during the journey, this will remove resources from planets/asteroids it's passing, this will, however be limited, and at some point it will reach that limit, forcing the ship to stand still for a large number of turns to refill the entire fleet. And crew death is permanent, if the entire fleet is down to minimal capacity, it will be forced to retreat) (NOTE this tech, does not need to be something you start off with, it can be high-end)

Now once you are at some system near A, you can continue to move to A and then evade A's forces (using stealth and such) and continue on to D, even all the way to Z if you are skilled enough.
A move mission, will add LESS micromanagement. And still have the same mission system. It will add a more strategical depth, in my own opinion. (or perspective)
No, no it does not. You have added something that bypasses the restrictions of supply, this has nothing to do with the mission system, but the logistics system. The support system required to do this adds more micro management, not less. Because it adds in an entirely new aspect that we currently don't have to manage.
Exitialis wrote:I also want to ask; Do you (general non-specific you) oppose this kind of move mission, and why?

I guess, that in order for me to get as close as I can, to what I want, I will be have to make a supply mod. This is something I'm going to work on. I'm basically going to increase all supply limits for supply ships, by something like 2x or 10x.

You are trying to throw out the supply limitations and the logistical consequences it entails. You have attempted to moderate this somewhat by making your suggested resource gathering ships have limits, but this role is already filled by supply ships.
Also, where are you getting food in deepspace from? Rocks?
Where is your fuel processing happening? What is going to haul that fuel?
In order for your idea to work, the game would have to reintroduce Tanker and refineries. It would need to introduce new classes of ships like deepspace greenhouse vessels(that would need to be DN class inside to produce enough) and food haulers(redundant to supply ships), and would introduce an entire new side of micromanagement to get those ships to and from systems. All to bypass the simple need to add some forethought into logistics.
Kerb took out tankers and refineries for a reason. I certainly don't want all the extra stuff to manage.

Edit: It sounds like you are playing on custom maps, any issues that crop up from that are self induced, and the solutions for them belong in the modding section, or at least in the suggestions forum. I want to play Kerberos's Sots II, not Exitialis's.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

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Mecron
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Tue May 29, 2012 8:21 pm

Dandy...sorry...but that is incorrect. The number of "no fuel to return home" naval missions in the history of mankind is numbered on one hand...and not a sign of a winning strategy.

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Mecron
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Tue May 29, 2012 8:25 pm

...cause that is mostly insane? ;) And yes endurance should fire up outside the bubble. Inside though a crews endurance even with food is NOT infinite.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 8:29 pm

From experience a Patrol at a friendly colony can last 800 turns, Not infinite but pretty significant.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

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Mecron
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Tue May 29, 2012 8:36 pm

lol yes I think the double end cut off point is being ignored in the bubble right now...but that should be making some folks more happy not less. ;)

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gennadius
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by gennadius » Tue May 29, 2012 8:38 pm

Exitialis wrote:You keep telling me I can do things, which I can not.
Ok, let's take this step by step.
What the current system is:
Right click, build a station as far as your supply limit/reach goes, repeat process until you are near enemy territory (about one system away from their lines, to be somewhat safe)
From that base, you will only be able to strike as far as the supply limit/reach goes, you can attack A, B and C, but not D, E and F, at least not until you have cleared A, B and C

Move Mission:
Put in a supply gathering and processing ship. (Agent, this is also an answer to you, so pay attention)
This ship will have a "mine resources" kind of mission or attribute that take x number of turn(s).
Now right click at some system near A, select your fleet and go there.

(supply gathering and processing ship will automatically mine and process resources for food for the crew and spare parts... etc... during the journey, this will remove resources from planets/asteroids it's passing, this will, however be limited, and at some point it will reach that limit, forcing the ship to stand still for a large number of turns to refill the entire fleet. And crew death is permanent, if the entire fleet is down to minimal capacity, it will be forced to retreat) (NOTE this tech, does not need to be something you start off with, it can be high-end)

Now once you are at some system near A, you can continue to move to A and then evade A's forces (using stealth and such) and continue on to D, even all the way to Z if you are skilled enough.
A move mission, will add LESS micromanagement. And still have the same mission system. It will add a more strategical depth, in my own opinion. (or perspective)


You can re-word or re-phrase things as much as you want. This is exactly SotS Prime movement that you are asking for. If you replace the "supply gathering and processing ship" with "refinery" in what you have stated above, you can see this clearly. Heck, even down to the mechanics of it being able to mine to refill itself but taking a few turns to do it.

Also, you seem to be confusing micromanagement with strategy and planning. The fact that you have to think through where to place bases, where to base fleets, what are the compositions of the fleets you use for various missions (i.e. defense, patrol, deep-raid, etc.), these are all strategic elements that are brought about because of the supply logistics.

These things make certain systems more important as targets as well, both to be attacked and defended, since Naval Bases will be key to the opposing sides military STRATEGY.

You keep using this deep-raid concept as your example, and we have shown how this is possible in the current environment with a little planning. I would not be opposed to having some technology or a mission (the support fleet element that is always talked about) that would allow some of these missions to have a longer endurance, but no matter what, that has to have an upper bound since there is a limit on what can be brought out to a fleet. It should allow for increased endurance of a mission, not for generic movement.

Crew morale for example, cannot be shipped out. There are maintenance elements on a ship that can only be done in a yard. Even from a fluff perspective, one can say they need to get back to base simply to get the latest intelligence and talk with their superiors (the Admirality) that are actually coordinating the overall strategy of your empire's navy.

Exitialis wrote:I also want to ask; Do you (general non-specific you) oppose this kind of move mission, and why?

I guess, that in order for me to get as close as I can, to what I want, I will be have to make a supply mod. This is something I'm going to work on. I'm basically going to increase all supply limits for supply ships, by something like 2x or 10x.



I object to the SotS Prime type movement being added into the SotS 2 environment because with 2, they have resolved one of the "quirks" about 1 that never made any real sense. Those were the abstraction of the supply train for fleets, and where/how the infrastructure was that supported an empire's navy. These things are now manifest in the game, and are thus critical elements that impact the strategic nature of the game. Instead of only worrying about tactical considerations (my fleet, enemy fleet, range, speed, colonies), you now have to worry about the overall picture regarding how to go about achieving your goals. Those include such minor details as power projection, defensive depth, secure supply lines, planning instead of reacting, and things like that.

This adds so much more depth and flavor (read strategy) to the game, that it does seem quite plain and vanilla without it. I loved SotS Prime, but the strategic concerns, especially with regards to fleet movement and planning, is simple checkers compared to the chess that you have in SotS 2.

I'll take chess any day.

Alganhar
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Alganhar » Tue May 29, 2012 9:08 pm

My latest game I had to make a series of strategic decisions fairly early on. My Homeworld was only a single size 10, I had a dual size 7 as one of my other startups, and a single size 4 as the third. In addition, my first survey fleet picked up a VERY nice multi planet system with a size 9, 2 size 8s, a size 7 and a size 6, some were a little high CH wise but nothing Biomes could not deal with.

So, to start I have a series of decisions to make based on what I have found, the first is I want that new system, and that will eventually become a primary Forge system. So it NEEDS a good defence, so once its colonised I put a naval base up there and upgrade it as rapidly as I can. That means I can eventually turn my homeworld into a Gem World once the tech is researched, so there is probably no need to do much to the startup Naval base there save add combat and command modules to up its defensive capabilities.

The twin size 7s were low on resources, but would make good trade income, so again, I need a base there to support defensive assets (such as minefields, Platforms etc), but not more than a level 2, level 1 really all that is required to start. So there I put up a Civ and a naval base, and prioritise upgrading the civ station. The size 4 is ok, but I can live with losing it, so I simply build a civ station there, take it to level 2 and simply add one more dock to give me 4 freighter slots.

So those are choices simply at the start of game. At every point I am making decisions based on where to supply my fleets from, where to prioritise my Station building and Fleet Support assets (i.e., my stations), which stations to prioritise and where...

Its a whole new world compared to Prime. Forcing you to make a strategic decision is NOT micromanagement, its simply making you consider your options and decide where to prioritise your resources and assets. At the moment the Ai is pretty dumb, but I have a feeling that when its fully up and running, its going to seriously punish you for ignoring the strategic decisions.

Lords of Winter is NOT Prime, never will be. The mission system is one of the Core parts of the game that makes it so different to Prime, and after really trying to push the Mission system over the last few games, especially since the last hotfix, I am getting a much better handle on it, and it is a great deal more flexible than it first appears. Especially when you start combining fleets and missions to pursue an objective.

The trick is to decide on your objective, then decide how you are going to achieve that objective, then design and fill your fleets in order to reach your objective.

So much more elegant than simply fleet spamming the hell out of everything.

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Agent.nihilist
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Agent.nihilist » Tue May 29, 2012 9:15 pm

I honestly think Exitialis' main issue is that he is staring down a huge gulf of space between him and his opponents. If he has a 100 LYs or more distance to cover, the need to build multiple stations and colonies just to touch his enemy may seem a little convoluted.
It seems he wants to send out ships from his Homeworld to reach them, which is just not going to happen.
Of course he's yet to give us any detail of the actual issue he is running into, so its hard to tell, but thats my 2 cents.
Will the Great wrote:Well, that's probably why you're having a difficult time. Because you made the game more difficult.

Ishantil wrote:BIRD RUSH KEKEKEKEKE

Don't mind me, I'm unreasonably reasonable :twisted:

Exitialis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Exitialis » Tue May 29, 2012 9:23 pm

Agent.nihilist wrote:Also, where are you getting food in deepspace from? Rocks?

I don't know how healthy chewing rocks would be. ;p
Personally, I would gather biological material from planets, as well as all other resources from planets. Deep space gathering seems rather pointless when you have a large heap of collected material within range, don't you think?
High-tech stuff is the solution, and let's not get lost into the details, for them we could discuss until the end of day.
The two basic items would be "Resources" and "Supply" you gather "Resources" with a "Resource" ship and process it with either a module on the "Resource" ship or with an entire "Processing" ship, to make the "Resources" into "Supply", catch my drift?

Agent.nihilist and gennadius, you are both saying that deep strikes are possible in vanilla sots 2, prove this to me. I want you to make a jump 10 or 20 sectors into enemy territory and from that place, raid strategic locations. The order has been issued.

I don't understand how you can think that a basic freedom of movement will impair strategy, it will only add. And it will not ruin the current system.

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BTAxis
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by BTAxis » Tue May 29, 2012 9:24 pm

I wonder if it is theoretically possible to put the game in a state where it is impossible to bridge a gap between you and another section of the galaxy.

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Mecron
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Re: Do you like the mission system?

Post by Mecron » Tue May 29, 2012 9:31 pm

I think people should reign in from "demanding" ANYTHING from other folks...debate driven folks should sometimes take a step back and remember their social graces.

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