Unknown Menaces cheat like crazy. Von Neumann are the worst.

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Raiga
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:48 pm

Unknown Menaces cheat like crazy. Von Neumann are the worst.

Post by Raiga » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:47 pm

Okay well some stuff is minor like
Slavers -- Only target brand new colonies so they'll take the entire population. Teleports too, which is major cheating. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.
Spectres -- Ignore humans and Zuul who they should target and go for the Morrigi. Also will teleport in rather than being detected at all. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.
Asteroids -- Only target brand new colonies where they'll wipe out the entire population. Happens without warning which is cheating since even humanity at our level tech level can predict the asteroids far in advance. And one turn is one year, based on the ship's travel per light year. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.
Peacekeeper -- One ship. If you destroy it, it is gone. But this one ship can be tons of places at once teleporting everywhere. And I've not tried to fight it with meson shields, but I heard people say its energy weapons go through meson shields, which is cheating.

But the Von Neumann are the biggest cheaters.
First the mothership randomly pick two worlds some distance from each other in a person's empire that have no ships going to them. All without scouting or scanning, which is cheating. I've also seen them harvest empty worlds which sucks. Anyhow, they pick the target about 10 turns in advance, so reloading from an old save to get rid of them means reloading 10 turns ago. Then it shows up as a surprise. When I reload from my last turn, and either make ships or move ships there, it hella cheats by going to its second choice world. Only when I have ships going to both worlds does the cheating mothership decide it will go to the first world.

VN Berserker -- This one goes and I kill the main double-pyramid cube thing. Then with some deep scan I kill all its drones. It showed up at turn 110ish so this was difficult, but I had a huge fleet there. So then there's one tiny final drone left. Once I kill that one suddenly I get a message about reinforcements I think and suddenly 20 more of them show up. I kill them and 20 more just materialize. And so on. Basically the thing respawns enedlessly despite me killing it totally off. This is the worst kind of cheating. So then I go and I try auto-resolve and I only loose 4 ships instead of dozens of ships and the planet. Oh and yes I set combat for 600 seconds because a turn represents one year and a these combat turns play out like it's only a few hours or well by the image of the planet rotating, a number of days.

It's alway slame when the computer has to cheat to win.

As for random encounters, the only good ones are where there's strategy instead of a cheating teleport on the map. And just minor enemies to kill are just cannon fodder usually. I do like the peacekeeper because there's strategy involved with it. But really this should be more like a big fleet of these things for realism, not one guy in every place at once. The asteroid monitor is an interesting one, it's unkillable early game but I saw the Zuul opponent skip the monitor and go straight toward the planet and kill the planet instead.

These random encounters are basically like if you play a human opponent in a game who is running hacks and cheating constantly, no fun. But some are good. I heard someone claim they made a mod to remove the lamer random encounters and keep the decent ones. What would be nice is if instead of teleporting suddenly, they are detected several turns out like the swarm is. Although the swarm is just some early enemy that dies totally later. Reminds me of Master of Orion 2 how the space dragon only shows up late game and says it'll either attack your system or if you pay him money, he'll attack an enemy. But he's so weak late game you just kill it.

Oh and for those who think it's unfair that you are attacked for defending yourself, that's not a cheat. That's how it is in real life.
As child, when you defend yourself physically from bullies you are punished for it.
As an adult, when you have neighbors who do things like... They torture you with noise all day and night, be it load music, revving mufflerless vehicles, or turning their backyard into a steel mill 14 hours a day 7 days a week for months on end (loud construction 14 hours a day every day that never ends). Or they have dogs that bark 24 hours a day nonstop. Or depending on the building configuration, they get a bunch of people chainsmoking out your window all day and night so not only can you not get fresh air, the stank is so immense because it's smoke they eventually seep in. This happens between apartments sometimes, and it's especially worse when they're smoking legalized marijuana and now you have intoxicating chemical residue everywhere that stinks. I've had all of that except thankfully not the pot smoke leaking in, but everything else is pretty common. In fact right now I have the steel mill in the backyard people who've been doing it 14 hours a day 6 days a week even during rain for months and they say they'll keep doing it for many more months. And as for defending yourself, just like bullies as a kid, they make it so if you try to defend yourself you get more harm. First, if you ask them it's uncomfortable, maybe dangerous, and then now if another neighbor does something sneaky against them you get blamed. If you try to make the government stop them (and I don't mean just some rare thing you call the cops to shut up loud music at night but people who just do their noise all day and then stop at 10pm 'cause they know that's legal), it's a lot of work and then they and their friends will retaliate like crazy for defending yourself. And if you try to do something sneaky and illegal, you're risking a criminal record, jail time, fines, etc. So yes defending yourself against something and then getting punished for defending yourself is not unrealistic (there was a thread where people said this about the VN Berseker), it's normal. Or well I don't want to give a modern economic example because that's political, so during the industrial revolution people had a lot of trouble surviving and for the poor, being a thief was considered a respectable profession, which seems odd today but people do what they need to in order to survive but at the risk of greater harm. And basically VN retaliating against colonies that defend themselves is a real life thing. Like how an oppressive government (e.g. 1984, Stalin, etc) hates people standing up against it.

Raiga
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Unknown Menaces cheat like crazy. Von Neumann are the wo

Post by Raiga » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:40 pm

Actually I've been thinking, that random events would be much better if they are a war of attrition instead of random events.

Like take meteors. Instead of a surprise full out thing, it'll be a warning next tunrn they're coming. Then first time it's a little and for 20 turns it gets worse, until finally stopping.

I wonder if this can be done with a mod.

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silvaril
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...

Post by silvaril » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:09 pm

Heya

Raiga wrote:Slavers -- Only target brand new colonies so they'll take the entire population. Teleports too, which is major cheating. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.

Slavers utilise Node lanes of sorts, being Zuul.
At the time of their introduction, no one in the SotS-verse was aware that artifical Node lanes could be created, and thus were surprised that vessels could just pop in out of nowhere like this.
Canon aside, as with most Randoms the idea is to provide them as both encouragement to expand, as something to keep you interested in the game and as something to potentially hinder your expansion.
Overcoming them is one of the fun factors for many.
Others...turn them off.

As for them only targeting new colonies, this is subjective.
I have had them target my homeworld on numerous occasions.

Raiga wrote:Spectres -- Ignore humans and Zuul who they should target and go for the Morrigi. Also will teleport in rather than being detected at all. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.

These beings live in Node Space, natively.
No way has been found to track them, unlike the wake from non-Native vessels traveling a Node Line, however certain sensors can provide a warning of a Spectre build up around a particular locale.

While I agree that it might make more thematic sense for Spectres to target systems where Node travel activity has taken place than other areas of the map, it would seem that they have bcome interested in surveying all areas of 'heavy space'.
Presumably because they encountered resistance of some sort in their initial areas of research near where Node travel was occurring and thus have decided to investigate 'pristine' areas in order to avoid such issues.
Sadly, they are in the process of discovering that just because the area chosen for investigation has never had Node travel incursions doesn't mean that there are not other dangerous entities...

Raiga wrote:Asteroids -- Only target brand new colonies where they'll wipe out the entire population. Happens without warning which is cheating since even humanity at our level tech level can predict the asteroids far in advance. And one turn is one year, based on the ship's travel per light year. Reload from last save to counter-cheat these cheaters.

I take issue with your insistance that we can detect these things at our current level. Numerous instances of near misses that were not discovered until after the event. The inability to track objects across our entire sky sphere.

I may agree that the issue is less one of 'can we' and more one of 'who wants to pay for defending against such a rare thing'.
After all, we are a species that returns to building our homes around a Volcano between it's eruptions...

However, your statement is again, subjective.
I have had these assault my Homeworld numerous times.

Raiga wrote:Peacekeeper -- One ship. If you destroy it, it is gone. But this one ship can be tons of places at once teleporting everywhere. And I've not tried to fight it with meson shields, but I heard people say its energy weapons go through meson shields, which is cheating.

The trans dimensional nature of the travel exhibited by this vessel is odd.
However, if you've ever experienced it showing up to multiple battles, certain that destroying it in the first will help...
Well... :twisted:

Raiga wrote:But the Von Neumann are the biggest cheaters.
First the mothership randomly pick two worlds some distance from each other in a person's empire that have no ships going to them. All without scouting or scanning, which is cheating. I've also seen them harvest empty worlds which sucks. Anyhow, they pick the target about 10 turns in advance, so reloading from an old save to get rid of them means reloading 10 turns ago. Then it shows up as a surprise. When I reload from my last turn, and either make ships or move ships there, it hella cheats by going to its second choice world. Only when I have ships going to both worlds does the cheating mothership decide it will go to the first world.

Heh.

The VN are actually the least 'cheating' of all of the Randoms, as they actually have a Homeworld.
Their ships actually travel to and from their HW.
As an example, once you have knowledge of a VN Construct, you can actually trace each known Construct across the map.

If you have ever played Hiver, you would know full well that they harvest from everywhere, not just Colony worlds.
Heck, given that I place pickets over every possible world during the game to deny others the ability to colonise, or at least without me knowing about it, I don't even need to play Hiver to see this ;)

And again, subjective on the placement of your ships relative to the VN.
One of the biggest issues when encountering VN with a main battle fleet when trying to avoid further attentions is in keeping the Mother vessel alive.
Nothing says annoying like having the 'Zerker show up after the MBF has moved on, just as the newly conquered colomy is getting it's sh*t together.

Raiga wrote:VN Berserker -- This one goes and I kill the main double-pyramid cube thing. Then with some deep scan I kill all its drones. It showed up at turn 110ish so this was difficult, but I had a huge fleet there. So then there's one tiny final drone left. Once I kill that one suddenly I get a message about reinforcements I think and suddenly 20 more of them show up. I kill them and 20 more just materialize. And so on. Basically the thing respawns enedlessly despite me killing it totally off. This is the worst kind of cheating. So then I go and I try auto-resolve and I only loose 4 ships instead of dozens of ships and the planet.


Actually, I personally have never seen VN reinforcements for the 'Zerker like this, so cannot comment on it.

However as far as AR versus Manual goes, yeah that is not uncommon.
Many of the Randoms, including the Grand Menaces, can get their butts kicked in AR, where in Manual you will have a very hard time of things.

This differential is one of the reasons why SotS-2 simulates the entire combat rather than doing as SotS Prime does.

Raiga wrote:Oh and yes I set combat for 600 seconds because a turn represents one year and a these combat turns play out like it's only a few hours or well by the image of the planet rotating, a number of days.

The Strategic versus Tactical time setting is something every game in this ilk struggles with, whether it be set in space such as SotS, in history such as the Total War series or even in the present, such as the XCom set.
Why, for instance, can I only have a squad of 4-6 ( in the latest XCom game ) land and approach the ship, instead of multiple squads?
Where is my eye in the sky artillery support?
Why does my Sniper have such a lousy sight range? ( balanced against having a better sight range along a very narrow field of view )

Invariably the answer is Gameplay.
What feels more fun over all?
Because a lot of the time, Realism ain't Fun...

Raiga wrote:As for random encounters, the only good ones are where there's strategy instead of a cheating teleport on the map. And just minor enemies to kill are just cannon fodder usually. I do like the peacekeeper because there's strategy involved with it. But really this should be more like a big fleet of these things for realism, not one guy in every place at once. The asteroid monitor is an interesting one, it's unkillable early game but I saw the Zuul opponent skip the monitor and go straight toward the planet and kill the planet instead.

Asteroids gives a bonus to Colony Resources.
Slavers give 10k credits per every Cruiser killed.
VN ships give Research bonuses when killed.
Swarm Queens et al give more credits on death.

Most of the randoms give you something to offset the fact that you had to combat them.
Some balance Combat with Strategic choices such as the Refugees.

Raiga wrote:These random encounters are basically like if you play a human opponent in a game who is running hacks and cheating constantly, no fun. But some are good. I heard someone claim they made a mod to remove the lamer random encounters and keep the decent ones. What would be nice is if instead of teleporting suddenly, they are detected several turns out like the swarm is. Although the swarm is just some early enemy that dies totally later. Reminds me of Master of Orion 2 how the space dragon only shows up late game and says it'll either attack your system or if you pay him money, he'll attack an enemy. But he's so weak late game you just kill it.

There are no Supernova's in SotS Prime.
No Volcanos.
No random movements of the tectonic plates to really foul things up.

Of the many things that really impact on individuals daily, on nation states, on the world as we understand it. from weather patterns to tectonic movements to solar flares, there are things we don't currently understand that have such seemingly random impacts across our daily lives.
On just the one planet we know of where such things can affect us.

In gameplay terms, not having these things can result in a seemingly Sterile environment, where things progress from game to game in a very similar fashion every time.
The introduction of events such as these is intended to reflect the reaility we live in rather than the sterile nature of say the chessboard in a game of Chess.

And of course, you can reduce their likelihood of occurring, turn them off or Mod them from the game to your heart's desire.

But be aware - it's your desire.
silvaril wrote:Love is Love, God is God and I am still Living a Lifetime

Disclaimer:
The views of any individual may not necessarily represent those of "God"(tm)

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