SotS1 SG17

Tactics and Action Reports.
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ivra
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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:35 am

I only managed to deal 85 000 in damage to the Locusts in Hm180Clus-01-LO T170.sav, way too low to kill it. I used up all the refineries and all the PD ships (lost 28 ships). In that game since it happened in deep space it could be possible to gather a new fleet at Fomalhaut and possibly take it out there, except that in this game there are no contingency fleets.

I did even worse in SotS1-SG16-LO T154.sav, dealing only 65 000 in damage.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by Abyss » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:48 am

I guess I had the time to finish these turns tonight.

T160: Scuttled the War Refinery, it served its fleet well. Queued up more Biomes at Shambala, turned down research a bit. Sent a deep scan ship to the Liir HW. Sent Death Room to intercept the remaining Liir fleets that are scattered around our territory.

IT: Mintar Liir colony destroyed.
Deep Space intercept successful, Liir patrol fleet destroyed.

T161: Sent Tick Tock to Moshu to avoid incoming fleets.
Shandor Terraforming complete.

IT: VN attack at Geidi Prime - I forgot the battle timer, this was a 10 minute VN attack. they got 800 resources.

T162: I combine the three old fleets Massive Illusion, Splendid Isolation, and License to Sing into one fleet - Oldies But Goodies. Head to Liir HW - mostly DDs seen with DeepScan.
Queued up 15 freighters.
Medea finishes infrastructure.
Slyggis finishes terraforming.
Biomes headed to Aaryn.
Arcturus finishes terraforming.
Mon El finishes terraforming.

IT: TIck Tock destroys Moshu colony.
Death Room takes care of another Liir patrol fleet.

T163: Tick Tock heads to Buunen.
Altair finishes terraforming.
Geidi Prime finishes terraforming and infrastructure.
Aditi finishes terraforming.
Build 8 Biomes for future colonies.

IT: Damage Liir HW but don't destroy it. 1.39 MM imperials killed, 695 civilians killed, infrastructure reduced by 62. 75k$ gained, only lost 1 CR and 2 DDs.
Destroyed Colony at Buunen.
Destroyed another Liir patrol fleet.

T164: Altair finishes infrastructure.
Arcturus finishes infrastructure.
Hyrakius finishes terraforming.
Magno Ceramics go overbudget.
Coloniz Aaryn
Oldies But Goodies head to Egoun to flee the incoming CRs to the HW.( I tested a blitz, but lost the entire fleet without making a dent.)

IT: Destroyed the Liir colony at Egoun.
Satellites at Buunen destroyed - fleet refines.

T165: Oldies But Goodies heads to Baymu.
Hyrakius finishes infrastructure.
MCLs come in, upgrade relevant warships.
Start research on Fusion.
Queue up 15 more freighters
Queue up 6 Heavy CRs at Shamballa

IT: Last Liir spy patrol fleet in our territory has been destroyed by Death Room.

T166: Aaryn finishes infrastructure.
Manticore finishes infrastructure.
Tick Tock heads to Uursh

IT: Destroy colony at Baymu
Destroy colony at Uursh

T167: Slyggia finishes infrastructure
Tully finishes terraforming
Aiditi finishes infrastructure
Queue up 5 more freighters

IT: Satellites at Ursh dead

T168: Colonize Prism.
Colonize Badoon.
Colonize Xhunhau.
Colonize Knossai.
Manticore finishes infrastructure.
Tully finishes infrastructure.
Dream of Stone headed to Keu'Loko
Queue up 5 more freighters.
Utility ships made for our re-purposed heavy CR fleets. They have been renamed to Roaring 2050s and Sensational 2060s.

IT: Nothing.

T169: Oldies But Goodies refining at Orando.

IT: Dream of Stone met heavy resistance at Keu'Loko, limping back with 1RF. Killed 1 AM era projector ship.
Tick Tock took out Ko'Velan colony, heading to Ku'Sulto.

T170: In 2 turns a Liir fleet of 9 ships will reach Arcturus. The Sensational 2060s will reach it in 5 turns, Deaths Room will reach it in 2 turns. I've queued up a disruptor CnC and a MassCA there to bolster the defense. The distance is 8.5, so they are either fusion or AM CRs. No Flicker Warp was seen, just regular AM right now.

Fusion is at 96%.

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ivra
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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:58 am

Turn 170
I added Axx as a prefix to our attack fleets that did not have any prefix. It's easier to find them in the fleet list this way. I am going to risk A08 Hopeful Audition by attacking Isis the next turn. I have no intel, but since I can do a surprise-attack I think it is worth it. The rest of A05 Random Band will arrive there in two turns to be joined with A08 Hopeful Audition unless I need to retrat.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies strikes Orcus defended by 1 DE and 10 sats and wipes out everything without any losses. It is heading for Zoroaster to try to repeat the feat there.
Isis is defended by 12 human CRs. Took out the baby colony and 4 CRs at the cost of 2 CRs and 2 DEs. I also destroyed two engines so there should be only 6 CRs next round.

Turn 171
Fusion came in on time, starting Void Carver Drive. Building a few freighters as I wait for the engine to come in.

Battles
Isis is now defended by 6 human CRs as predicted. A08 Hopeful Audition lost 1 CR taking them out.
Arcturus is attacked by 9 Liir CRs. A04 Death Room is set to the task of defending the colony. Took out the CnC and 2 CRs, but lost all our ships. The colony will fall next turn. The revenge fleet A11 The Sensational 2060s is 3 turns out.
A01 Tick Tock, or what is left of it, is attacking Ku'Sulto, a Liir colony defended by 5 sats and 1 DE. Everything is taken out without losses. 4 CRs are incoming next turn, but there is no fuel to run away...
A09 Oldies But Goodies strikes the Liir colony at Zoroaster defended by only 2 DEs and 1 sat. All clear, no losses. This battle gave us the special project "The Cry of Kantele", which I started. The fleet needs more fuel, so 3 refineries will stay behind and refuel while the fleet attacks the nearby colony Okara, before returning to pick up the refineries.

Turn 172
Void Carver Drive should be ready next turn so I will not build anything until it is done. A10 Roaring 2050s is sent across the rift to attack the Liir colony Ymar. It will arrive in 4 turns.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies attacked the Liir colony Okara, defended by only 7 sats. Victory without any losses. The fleet is returning to Zoroaster to pick up the three refineries and continuing its hit and run attacks.
Defending Arcturus with only 1 DE. At least 3 of the remainding 6 CRs are badly damaged. I did not managed to run away with the DE and the colony fell, as predicted.
A01 Tick Tock will fight its final battle at Ku'Sulto. Those 4 CRs turned out to be 16 CRs... Took out 1 CnC and 1 CR.

Turn 173
Void Carver Drive on overbudget, turning down research in order to save money.

Battles
The Rimward Mercs launced an attack on Down by 17 CRs, a colony owned by our ally. A08 Hopeful Audition is helping defending it. We started between their fleet and took a lot of damage. We lost 3 CRs and 4 DEs, our ally lost 4 CRs, and the humans lost 14 CRs. Only 3 CRs to go, but our fleet is soon depleted.

Turn 174
Void Carver Drive came in. Redesigned our ships and deleted all fission designs to avoid building mishaps. Since we have Neutronium Rounds I started on Stormers. I know it is a gamble, but it would be really nice if we have Heavy Stormers. We will know in two turns. Wow, started to build a new fleet at Aaryn. That monster world can build 15 CRs in one turn. Time to save a bit more money.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies attacked Archon, a Liir colony defended by 1 DE and 20 sats. Colony and DE down, only 5 LDs and 4 MDs to go.
Auto-combat at Down to finish off the 3 remaining damaged human CRs.
A11 The Sensational 2060s is trying to take back Arcturus, attacking the 7 CRs stationed there. Liir brought in one more so the number is now 7, not 6. Victory, lost 2 CRs.

Turn 175
The new fleet will be ready next turn. Aaryn's building capability is insane!

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies is cleaning up Archon. Done, no losses.
A10 Roaring 2050s is attacking Ymar, a Liir colony defended by 5 CRs, 1 DE, and 20 sats. I only managed to take out 4 CRs, but I did not suffer any losses. The disruptor shield works great!
One of our spies in deep space was taken out.

Turn 176
A12 Emerald Lies is ready and will hit a human colony in 2 turns. Building biomes this turn.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies took out a CR at Archon.
A08 Hopeful Audition attacked the human colony Aldebaran, defended by 1 CR, 2 DEs, and 10 sats. Colony and ships down, only 4 LDs to go, and no losses.
A10 Roaring 2050s is still attacking Ymar. It is now defended by 2 CRs, 1 DE, and 20 sats. Lost 1 CR, but managed to take out the ships and 7 sats. Two more CRs are incoming next turn but I will stay and fight.

Turn 177
Stormers are in and we have Heavy Stormers, so I started it. Building biomes to colonize everything on our side of the rift. I will wait for Heavy Stormers to come in before I create a new combat fleet. Then we can compare the performance of the two.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies is attacking Zamara, this time encountering 2 CRs, 2 DEs, and 20 sats. Lost 7 LDs, but took out the colony and the ships; only 11 sats to go.
A12 Emerald Lies has arrived at Mjolnir and will fight its first battle. The Rimward Mercs colony is defended by only 1 CR, 5 DEs and 20 stats. I was clumsy and lost a CR right before the battle ended, but the ships and 13 sats are down. The colony will fall next turn.
A08 Hopeful Audition took out the 4 remaining LDs at Aldebaran.
A10 Roaring 2050s is still attacking Ymar. This time defended by 3 CRs, and 13 sats. Only the ships and 3 sats were taken out, but the fleet suffered no losses. Another Liir CR will arrive next turn.

Turn 178
Oops, overlooked one colony site. So this is the turn where I am building the last biomes for colonizing our side of the rift.

Battles
A09 Oldies But Goodies is cleaning up Zamara.
A12 Emerald Lies met resistance at Mjolnir since the Rimward Mercs brought in 12 CRs and 5 DEs this turn. That was better: Took out 8 CRs without any losses.
A10 Roaring 2050s is still attacking Ymar. This time vs 2 CRs, and 10 sats. This has been a long battle. Another CR will arrive next turn, but now there are only 6 sats and 480 million imperials left, so we are getting there...

Turn 179
2 Liir ships are incoming to Medea in two turn. I started to build some ships there and around it to defend the colony.

Battles
A08 Hopeful Audition took out a human refinery at Kepler.
A12 Emerald Lies is continuing its attack on Mjolnir, this time encountering 5 CRs, 8 DEs, and 11 sats. This time I lost 2 CRs to take out all the ships and 1 LD.
A10 Roaring 2050s is still attacking Ymar. This time vs 1 CR, and 8 sats. Lost 1 CR since the CR had Deflectors. Managed to reach the colony afterward and take out 2 sats and 80 million imperials. And as before, another CR is incoming next turn.

Turn 180
Heavy Stormers on overbudget. A11 The Sensational 2060s is ready for action again as the colony Arcturus is rebuilt and the fleet is refueled.

SG17 T180.sav
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ZedF » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:20 pm

ivra wrote:I only managed to deal 85 000 in damage to the Locusts in Hm180Clus-01-LO T170.sav, way too low to kill it. I used up all the refineries and all the PD ships (lost 28 ships). In that game since it happened in deep space it could be possible to gather a new fleet at Fomalhaut and possibly take it out there, except that in this game there are no contingency fleets.

I did even worse in SotS1-SG16-LO T154.sav, dealing only 65 000 in damage.

You have to be pretty careful how you move the refineries so that they don't blow up on each other too much and yet still get close enough to the fleetworld to explode on top of it in order to win in those conditions. It's a lot easier to get a refinery close to the fleetworld if you have Disruptor shields or Cloaking to help out.

As for the current game, I have the save and will try to get this donein the next couple days or, failing that, over the weekend.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by Abyss » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:58 pm

Oof, I totally forgot about the fleets over near the humans. I probably could have taken out a lot more colonies, but I didn't even think about them. Good job on the Arcturus ordeal, ivra. Somehow that fleet got through the sensor fleet and totally took me by surprise.

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ivra
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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:34 pm

Abyss wrote:Oof, I totally forgot about the fleets over near the humans. I probably could have taken out a lot more colonies, but I didn't even think about them. Good job on the Arcturus ordeal, ivra. Somehow that fleet got through the sensor fleet and totally took me by surprise.

No, I think you spotted it as early as you could. Liir is using AM engines and move pretty far each turn, even if they start from a colony. The colony was just resettled and will soon be back again, so no worries.

I am a little curious about how effective stormers are going to be. I know they work great if the opponent does not have too good armor, but they are really bad against the top two tier armors, but as far as I know the chances of Liir and humans getting them is very small. So I think stormers should do well in this game.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ZedF » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:28 pm

Not really:
  • Liir have at least Magnetoceramic, and Magnetoceramic pretty much kills stormers (even heavy stormers) dead. Liir have highly curved hulls to make deflection chances worse still for us. Chances for Liir or Humans to get Quark, given Magnetoceramic, are not in fact small but are instead 50% or better.
  • Stormers can only engage well at short range, but our enemies also are mostly using weapons that are even better at short range, such as AM projectors and emitters. Not only does short range make it harder to effectively concentrate fire eg to quickly kill the CnC, it plays right into our enemies' attack plans.
  • We already have weapons that outperform heavy stormers when pit up against Magnetoceramic armour.
Based on my experience with Stormers in previous games, this was not the game in which to experiment with them. Regular Stormers only work against entirely unarmoured targets, and heavy stormers against no more than Polysilicate armour. After that, the deflection chances quickly get prohibitive.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:03 am

ZedF wrote:Not really:
  • Liir have at least Magnetoceramic, and Magnetoceramic pretty much kills stormers (even heavy stormers) dead. Liir have highly curved hulls to make deflection chances worse still for us. Chances for Liir or Humans to get Quark, given Magnetoceramic, are not in fact small but are instead 50% or better.
  • Stormers can only engage well at short range, but our enemies also are mostly using weapons that are even better at short range, such as AM projectors and emitters. Not only does short range make it harder to effectively concentrate fire eg to quickly kill the CnC, it plays right into our enemies' attack plans.
  • We already have weapons that outperform heavy stormers when pit up against Magnetoceramic armour.
Based on my experience with Stormers in previous games, this was not the game in which to experiment with them. Regular Stormers only work against entirely unarmoured targets, and heavy stormers against no more than Polysilicate armour. After that, the deflection chances quickly get prohibitive.


How can you tell that Liir has at least Magnoceramic? We have not researched Data Correlation yet. If they have, I agree that stormers are not good. But from my experience I have played a lot of games as humans and Liir where I only got polysilicate, and sometimes not even that. So I assumed that the chance of getting to Magnetoceramic for those races were really small.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:14 am

I tried to look it up in the wiki. If I understand it correctly the chance to get to MagnoCeramic is only about 50% for both of them. What I found was this:

Liir:
Chance to get Polisilicate: 80%
Chance to get MagnoCeramic: 60%
For a total of 80%*60% = 48%

Human:
Chance to get Polisilicate: 70%
Chance to get MagnoCeramic: 70%
For a total of 70%*70% = 49%
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:54 am

ivra wrote:How can you tell that Liir has at least Magnoceramic? We have not researched Data Correlation yet. If they have, I agree that stormers are not good. But from my experience I have played a lot of games as humans and Liir where I only got polysilicate, and sometimes not even that. So I assumed that the chance of getting to Magnetoceramic for those races were really small.

So as you can see just from the math the chance to get Magnetoceramic in the first place is not that low - better than our own chance to get stormers, or to get heavy stormers given we have stormers in our tree. If our choice of researching toward heavy stormers depends entirely on the enemy not having Magnetoceramic armour, then relying on a coin flip to suggest they don't isn't good policy. This should really be backed up by observation that their armour is lacking, either from Data Correlation or by other means, before going down that path. The risk of pouring substantial funds (research, ship construction, ship maintenance) and time (opportunity cost) into something which is already obsolete is too high to undertake without mitigating evidence to the contrary.

But it's quite possible to get a strong sense that the Liir have at least Magnetoceramic just from observing how many deflections our mass drivers have when attacking Liir ships. For instance, on the first turn of my play set we have an old mass driver fleet attacking a Liir world defended by 2 cruisers and a bunch of sats. A whole fleet (8 CAs with outnumbering) should be able to easily crush 2, but it took a substantial amount of time to do so and I lost a ship in the exchange; moreover the sats also showed similarly high deflection counts and overall toughness. Mass drivers have an armour penetration of -1, to heavy stormers -0.9, so I know I would get more deflections off heavy stormers than I would off mass drivers, and I observed a lot of mass driver deflections -- more than I would expect from just Polysilicate armour. The level of deflectiveness I observed would be sufficient to cut heavy stormer damage by at least 70%, enough to make them non-viable.

In fact the Liir have had Magnetoceramic for a long time, because I recall seeing similar deflectiveness from Liir deep space interceptions in my last turn set. This was why I suggested at the end of my last turns that our old mass driver fleets were obsolete and should endeavour to go after soft targets rather than try to take on well-defended worlds.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by Abyss » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:08 pm

Even with our fights against the Zuul ships, stormers would have been questionable because Purple had Magnoceramics and Red had polysilicates early on. The amount of research divergence we would have needed to take to grab the tech would have made us considerably weaker. I don't put a lot of stock into stormers in general, and I've only had a few games where the AI got to it before I was able to grab an armor to mitigate a lot of the damage. Due to Aaryn being a considerable boon, I don't think your divergence into stormers will hurt us much, but I recommend (and I'm sure Zed may have already done so) abandoning Heavy Stormers for something else more effective.

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 pm

I seriously considered it, Abyss. I was and remain very unconvinced that stormers will be helpful for us, and I would certainly have preferred spending the last half-dozen turns instead researching weapons tech more guaranteed to be helpful, like Neutronium or X-ray Lasers. Still, unlike last time a questionable research choice was made, the facts are that (a) we were already overbudget on Heavy Stormers and need at most 2 turns to finish, (b) at least one person on the team seemed to really want to experiment with this, and (c) we have enough of a territory and economic advantage that we can afford to set fire to 6-8 turns of research even if we are still trying to catch up technologically. Heavy Stormers completed on T141 but I have no plans to incorporate it in any ship designs.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ivra » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:56 pm

ZedF wrote:...at least one person on the team seemed to really want to experiment with this...

Not any more, since both the humans and Liir have Magno armor or better.

ZedF wrote:Heavy Stormers completed on T141 but I have no plans to incorporate it in any ship designs.

That is ok, see above.
A lot of these road signs go missing every year as the tourists collect their trophies. It makes me wonder if this road sign is indeed the most wanted souvenir of Norway...

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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by ZedF » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:50 pm

Ok, noted. To be fair, I don't know for sure that Humans have Magnetoceramics since all combat with them I have observed have been with AP drivers, but the Liir are the main concern anyway.
Zed's TARs (sample):
Fractious Allies -- Hiver vs. Hiver, with allies
Who Let The Bugs Out -- Hiver vs. Tarka and Zuul
Tarka Ascendant -- Tarka vs. Hiver and Zuul

Strategy & Tactics Forum Archive -- More posts on strategy, tactics, and TARs

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Abyss
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Re: SotS1 SG17

Post by Abyss » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:12 pm

Zed can probably defeat the Liir with nothing more than green lasers, refineries, and skill forged from thousands of hours of SotS. I, on the other hand, prefer very large and expensive guns.I trust his judgement on whatever he does in the next 10 turns.

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